2017/05/15 08:19:33
occide
Hi folks,
 
I'm into ambient music.. I like lush and organic sounding pads and drones. Well who doesn't? Opposed to the sharp, stinging and squeaky pads most synthesizers produce by default.
 
TL;DR: Is there a technique using plugin effects to make a synthetic pad sound more natural? Like feeding some sample into the envelope after it has been generated? I'd rather ask before I throw a ton of money at the problem and still may not solve it satisfyingly.
 
So far I the following techniques produce more or less the sound I'm looking for:
 
Using the plugin "Stretcher" to take a random noise sample (e.g. jet engine), stretch it extremely long, feed it into Vocalizer Pro and play with my keyboard on Vocalizer Pro
Pro: Rich, lush and very organic pads
Con: Awkward and circuitous workflow. Results sound good but are very random and hard to reproduce. Vocalizer Pro is discontinued and has couple of bugs.
 
Using the demo of Iris 2
Pro: Nice and rich pads
Con: High price tag. Most pads kinda sound alike, mostly very breathy. That's great for some but not for all. Not many people seem to use it -> little sound banks available.
 
Absynth 5 using samples (only watched a video of this)
Pro: Really great pads
Con: Even higher price tag for a rather dated synth. I try to avoid NI like the flue. Not sure if it's actually available for PC (website says Mac)
 
Serum using samples (only watched a video of this)
Pro: Great workflow, ok pads. Tons of soundbanks available.
Con: Bit synthetic still, price beyond my hobbyist budget.
 
Not working / eligible for modifying the sound with effects somehow:
 
Pretty much all synthesizers of the Air Production Bundle, like Vacuum Pro and Hybrid, dozends of free / gimmick synths like Zebralette etc.
Pro: Easy workflow, cheap / free
Con: Not the sound I want, very artificial 
 
2017/05/15 17:32:25
timidi
I think the term "organic pad" may be different for everyone.
Might want to post an example of what you are talking about.
I've never considered the sound of a jet engine as organic.
 
2017/05/15 19:32:08
Jeff Evans
You have missed a few.
 
Korg Wavestation. One of the most beautiful synths for complex pads. The plugin IS as good as the hardware.
 
New Sonic Arts Granite. An amazing granular synth. Can turn any sound such as a single tabla hit into the most amazing pads I have ever heard.
 
Check here for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuN0Jezi2Kw&t=339s
and here too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhIPcKB7eug
 
This is one complex instrument. It takes a while to master but when you do you can unleash its power. I love it. You can tune the pads too and yes it is still connected to your controller and playable from a keyboard. The sounds all transpose up and down etc..
 
Sound Guru The Mangle. Another amazing granular. I have this too and also love it. Despite being granular too like Granite it is very different beast. Listen here to what can be done from a single Tibetan bell hit:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFDg7X3dlfc
 
Iris 2 is amazing. I have got it and the sounds definitely do not sound all the same. It depends on who is driving it. I agree about the price tag too but one day it was on special for $49.95 I think. I bought it. There is a huge library that goes with it too.
 
Be careful about using sound libraries that come with all the complex pads already made for you. Everyone else has them too. Make them yourself.
 
Listen to Eno's Ambient 4 On Land for the most organic pads ever created. He started it all.
 
I also have a Roland JD800 synth too and if you spend the time making sounds they can be still out of this world. Be prepared to build pads yourself like using many tracks. Effects do go a long way too. Long reverbs etc.. 
 
2017/05/15 20:14:15
mettelus
Dupe
2017/05/15 20:15:34
mettelus
+1 for Korg Wavestation and Iris 2. Those are the only two mentioned above that I familiar with. The Wavestation is basically the brains of the original synth with all add-ons, while Iris 2 is a lot deeper than the presets may appear at first (incredibly capable actually). The sale point is valid for both of these, iZotope is pretty regular with theirs.

I cannot speak to the others, so the above comment is not to discount the validity of them.
2017/05/15 23:15:40
savageopera
I recently purchased the Arturia minilab II controller with Arturia Analog Lab 2 software. My first Arturia purchase. 5000+ designer presets plus every keyboard and synth you can think of :Arp, Prophet, Matrix, Solina,  Synclavier, Moogs. Rolands, Korgs etc. Plus a Hammond B3, Vox, Farfisa , Fender Rhodes, Wurly, Steinway and on and on. Inumerabe different pads all infinitly tweakable as you can pull up the windows that give you any synth you want right in your face to play with. Brilliant interface with categorizing, effects, layering etc. Easy to get around on. Amazing quality and value for $89 for software @ Musicians friend. (I think its worth ten times that much) . I also bought the Minilab II controller that has 16 rotary pots + 8 two layer pads that automap to the synths  ( controller + software = $130.....great deal! ).  I've had it for two months and I'm still exploring. Check it out on Youtube..." Arturia Analog Lab 2 ".........it's like dying and going to synth heaven..........I am not a sales rep, but I am a convert.......I doubt if I'll ever need another synth ............Ron



.
2017/05/16 17:20:12
bitflipper
What distinguishes "organic" from "synthetic" sounds? In one word: "complexity".
 
Sounds that originate acoustically in the natural world are naturally complex by nature. Look at the lengths developers have gone to make sampled pianos sound natural, replicating small factors such sympathetic resonance, damper noise, release samples and crossfaded velocity layers. And the piano is actually one of the easiest acoustical instruments to fake, as evidenced by the plethora of piano libraries on the market. Still, it took many years to get to where we are today.
 
Synthetic sounds, by comparison, are much simpler in nature. You start with some oscillators whose only contribution is static harmonic content. Then you modulate them in different ways to effect what we call "movement". What we're really trying to do is make those oscillators less boring. But we have to go to great lengths to get anything anywhere near as complex as an acoustical instrument, because LFOs and envelope generators suffer from predictability. You'll give a patch some nice variation only to realize it "varies" way too consistently and ultimately becomes boring.
 
Why is it boring? Because our ears are trained in the real world. Complex sounds are what we expect. We crave something new, even if that newness only occurred in the last half-second. Want great-sounding pads that aren't boring? Make them change moment-to-moment. It's not enough to layer multiple sounds. Layers have to be independently moving. 
 
Start with complex waveforms. Strings are a good foundation, because they are inherently complex, harmonically-speaking. You have to start with harmonic complexity, because without that you have no basis for variation through modulation. You will never make an interesting pad from just sine waves (although sines can make for an interesting component layer). Make sure each layer adds something distinct to the mix.
 
Amplitude modulation is the simplest, and arguably the most effective technique for movement. Make each layer slowly fade in and out, each at a different rate. This continuously gives the ear something new to zero in on. Filtering is the next-easiest. Slowly sweep a high-pass filter, again with a different LFO rate and waveform for each layer. Comb filtering is especially good for constantly shifting focus, especially when each layer is modulated independently.
 
Not all synthesizers are created equal when it comes to modulation. Some are capable but don't make it easy. Some simply don't provide the internal connections. Any synth that limits you to just the basic oscillator waveforms is going to be a challenge to make interesting pads with. Wavetable synths are better, sample-based synths better still.
 
This is why Omnisphere is the king of pads. It has it all: classic waveforms, gobs of wavetable waveforms, sampled sound sources, sophisticated layering and modulation. And a ton of high-quality effects. But you don't necessarily need Omnisphere to create great pads, just multiple and varied sound sources that weave in and out of the mix. You don't need to get it all from one synth, either - for example, I like to blend Kontakt-based strings with U-he Zebra for a mix of organic and synthetic that is neither.
 
 
2017/05/17 00:14:58
Jeff Evans
It is possible to make deep complex organic and evolving pads from just a synthesiser alone and with only a handful of oscillator waveforms. I used to do it all the time back in the early 80's period. BUT you need a few things though.
 
One is preferably a modular synth so some very complex sounds can actually be had through some tricky patching.
 
The other is an analog sequencer.  It can do things like step through various things.  Something that without it cannot happen.
 
And thirdly effects. I used a Roland Space echo, plus their stereo flanger/chorus and delays etc. Home made ring modulators etc..
 
The other thing is tracks. I had to layer 16 or more tracks in order to create those type of sounds as well. This is all hard work of course but today it is much easier.  But I guess one cool thing about doing it this way is you had a huge amount of control over every little aspect to the ambient sound.  
 
I also used to record natural things like a small stream for example, pitch it down an octave or two (using a tape machine of course) and reverse it and then mix that in very low levels at various times.  Like Eno does in Ambient 4. One of those tracks features a swamp rather cleverly.
 
The Granular synths can do very complex and organic sounds standing on their ear.  And you have huge amounts of control over how it is doing it too.  If you watch the Granite videos I pointed to earlier you will see many of the controls are being modulated.  You can record all those moves and modulations yourself and play them back.  You can edit them too. 
2017/05/17 17:53:18
occide
Sorry for the late reaction and thanks for the huge amount of input. I actually wanted to post audio examples but I'm having some trouble with Sonar atm.
 
So I bought Iris 2 now, it's not bad but definitely not the end of the story for me. Funny thing, I always thought that most Iris 2 pads sound a bit like a pipe organ. One night my wife came in and I said "hey, listen" and she instantly said "Not bad, but is that a church organ?" :D
 
The guy at the store pointed me towards Eventide Blackhole, and I fell in love. But that price tag... dude no way for me. I looked at Valhalla Vintage Verb, but in my ears it's not the same league as Blackhole. Anything like Blackhole? Not more than 50€? :|
 
What's the difference between synthetic and organic? I can't prove it but I can hear the original sine (saw, etc.) wave, no matter how it was modulated. To my ears it sounds sharp, constant, cheap, don't have better words. Complexity definitely is an important factor but not the only one I think.
2017/05/18 02:16:53
Magic Russ
occide
Using the demo of Iris 2
Pro: Nice and rich pads
Con: High price tag. Most pads kinda sound alike, mostly very breathy. That's great for some but not for all. Not many people seem to use it -> little sound banks available.

 
Homegrown sounds has some, including a free demo bank of 65 sounds.
http://hgsounds.com/product-category/iris/
 

Absynth 5 using samples (only watched a video of this)
Pro: Really great pads
Con: Even higher price tag for a rather dated synth. I try to avoid NI like the flue. Not sure if it's actually available for PC (website says Mac)

 
First, Absynth is available for PC and works fine on both Windows 7 or Windows 10, 32 bit or 64 bit.
 
Second, if it has really great pads (and it does), the concept of dated is irrelevant.
 
 
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