• Techniques
  • Metal recording and the lack of balls. (p.2)
2016/10/15 14:22:42
BASSJOKER
What sound you getting now ?  maybe just work on you own unique sound and don't worry about nailing that particular one.   ....also maybe a Red Pick will do the trick  ;o) 
seriously though...i hope ya find that satisfaction ya crave .....I'm working on it too ... in a diff way
;o)
2016/10/15 14:41:56
Beepster
The trick to "ballsy" metal guitar tones is to let the bass guit be the "balls".
 
Example: On your rhythm guits use a high pass filter to yank out a huge chunk of the lower freqs on the guitar to allow the bass guit through. Ideally in this scenario the bass will be very tight with the rhythm guits. That doesn't mean the bass is duplicating the rhythm guits exactly (bass turns to mud when picked very fast in thick mixes). Just that when the bass IS plucked that it accentuates a pluck on your rhythm guits (which will also hopefully correspond with the drums).
 
Basically the bass becomes the "low end" of your guit parts and mix while at the same time interacting with the drums in a thoughtful way.
 
The "ballsy guitars" of most well produced metal mixes are actually very "thin" if heard in isolation. This is why it's important to have a good, solid bass player who knows how to mesh well with the rhythm guits and drums at the same time without going crazy.
 
For "riff" sections where the bass and drums stop that "thin" sound can sound weak/bad on it's own though. My solution is to automate the hipass EQ to allow the low freqs of the amp/amp sim on the rhythm guit tracks through when isolated riffage is going on. I'd imagine a carefully setup up dynamic EQ or multiband compressor with sidechaining would work too without the automation futzery.
 
Full disclosure: Not a pro engineer and these concepts have been extrapolated based on the advice of folks around here (most notably, but not limited to, Danny Danzi) and my own experimentation.
 
Those SOS articles are very nice too but I don't think cover this aspect as well as it could. They fall back on the "use REALLY good amps stoopid" which of course isn't always possible. In my case I went cray-balls on learning my amp sims inside and out to get the sounds I want and they work almost as (or just as) good as I could likely pull of with real amps with like 1/100th of the PITA, expense, hassle, etc.
 
High gain metal is one of the most difficult genres to mix.
 
Good luck.
2016/10/15 14:52:21
Beepster
Oh... and as a guitar player there is a LOT of technique involved in getting that tight bottom end. You need to REALLY have good "right hand/picking" technique. This means ultra tight picking AND having the ability to really manipulate your pick attack via palm muting to open picking to adding subtle (and not so subtle) levels of "pinch harmonics" on your rhythm parts. Right hand technique is MASSIVELY important to slick rhythm tracks. Much more so than "the most perfectest metal amplage EVAR!" in my opinion.
 
Once I write something and even track it "perfectly" as far as the notes and timing I practice it a buttload of times to really nail the right hand nuances so it hits the sims and other guits/instruments in just the right way.
 
Of course this isn't even TOUCHING on the concept of doubling, panning, mirror EQing of rhythm guits which you should look into as well.
 
Cheers.
2016/10/15 15:00:53
straighttothebar
BASSJOKER
What sound you getting now ?  maybe just work on you own unique sound and don't worry about nailing that particular one. 

Well, here's a short example of somtn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey3Wpn0wBO4&
Made this video earlier to demonstrate a bug I had in Sonar..
 
BASSJOKER
....also maybe a Red Pick will do the trick  ;o)

Do not question the importance of the Black Pick.
Thank you.
 
BASSJOKER
seriously though...i hope ya find that satisfaction ya crave .....I'm working on it too ... in a diff way
;o)

Thanks! Now you made me curious, go on, hit me, what different way? :-)
2016/10/15 15:10:11
straighttothebar
Yay Beepster, I appreciate that, but it's too much to take in for now, lemme go to bed and sleep and what not and read it thoroughly tomorrow! Thanks, Cheers
 
2016/10/15 15:18:16
Jeff Evans
When you listen to that track the bottom end is coming from three places. The bass guitars mainly, kick and the guitars.  But the bass and kick have got about 90% of the overall deep sound in the mix.  That kick by the way is also adding depth and punch to the sound but it has the rhythmic pulsating feel in the mix.
 
Guitars need bottom end too but not too much.  And not too little either.  It is easy to carve out too much of the guitar bottom end sound too.  The way I get the balance right is to run the final guitars through a HPF and carefully move the cutoff freq around while listening to everything.  (Note: that slope in the HPF is important too. Its setting depends on how much low end you have recorded and how much needs to be slightly carved away)  There will be a point where the guitar low end meets the bass and kick nicely.  Still adding in some weight and power into the rhythm gtrs but staying clear of the deepness coming from the bass sound.
 
Sounds to me you may not be getting the bass/kick sounds right.  You need to get that sorted before getting near any guitar low end adjustments.
 
 
2016/10/16 00:02:33
straighttothebar
First off thank you Beepster and thank you Jeff Evans.
Now that is some piece of advice right there. I knew I came to the right place.
 
I'd like to say a few words about amp sims.
I have tried amp sims before too, from the free ones (lepou, Ignite, Nick Crow lab,..) to the commercial ones (Amplitube, TH2/3, Revalver, Line6, Guitar Rig,..) but I personally find it hard to find and then KEEP a tone with them, because there are just too many variables and possible setups. For instance Amplitube: once you find an amp you like, the party begins: which cabinet? 4x12? 2x12? 1x12? brand? which mic? how many mics? mic position? room ambiance on? off? which speakers? Or rather a guitar impulse?
I admit, the tones you get out of it require much less work once recorded, like eq'ing compressing etc.. But no matter which amp sim free or not, I end up thinking, ok not bad, but this isn't MY tone, I didn't create it. Are you following?
 
I see both of you talk about taking out the lower frequencies out of the guitar, so there's more room left for the bassguitar. This is probably the best advice one can get. I played in a band for about 10 years and I always thought of the bassplayer as a friendly person to fill the stage, and do some heavy lifting afterwards. Now, years later, here in my homestudio, I realize, I was mistaken. The bassguitar is the glue that keeps the song together. I can see that. And yet, looks like I still don't pay enough attention to it. Time to shift my focus.
 
Thanks again for all the input.
 
Cheers
2016/10/16 01:36:10
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
straighttothebar
 I played in a band for about 10 years and I always thought of the bassplayer as a friendly person to fill the stage, and do some heavy lifting afterwards. Now, years later, here in my homestudio, I realize, I was mistaken.



if you hadn't added the 2nd sentence I thought you'd be Lars Ulrich in disguise, trying to break into the guitar realm ;-)
2016/10/16 02:00:06
straighttothebar
Rob[atSound-Rehab]
if you hadn't added the 2nd sentence I thought you'd be Lars Ulrich in disguise, trying to break into the guitar realm ;-)



Haha, yeah...  ... no I would never apologize in public.. Wait, Jason is that you?
2016/10/16 19:13:08
BASSJOKER
Lol......i perked up a lil on that Bass banter there a moment....nice ya did see the light.  I played Bass many years with pals ...it is the glue ...and changes a song/feel quickly if not taken seriously in so many aspects.   That said....I have played guitar far longer and with more passion and it is more my focus again for many moons.
My nemesis at the moment is learnin'/dialing in my recording/prod/mixdown skills to get a demo recorded .   My pal (drums) n I are putting a new band together but... I have been dealing with a broken/sprained index finger (fret hand... :o(  ...) that after a few weeks I can finally play a lil but very carefully ...for short times to get it dialed in again.  The pain that still lingers is a bummer and its a drag to lose so much pick'n time...thank goodness for what I did have recorded to work with in the mean time.   Sorry for the rant.... as for the gtr sim vs. real amp deal ....I go thru that a bit too ....though for the demo mode of all this I like the quick and dirty Sim(mostly Amp4) vs taming my 1/2 stack in the small recording space I know have.
....time to wrap up here  ....look forward to hearing your successful recordings....your youtube audio is getting there....I agree with the advice above....it certainly works for many around here and makes sense.  I try to test/utilize all the lil advice given on these forums....tremendous help all around.  Thanks to all for that  ;o)
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