2016/08/04 00:17:37
RexRed
I use the markers to put lyrics in
 
But I also use them for chords.
 
But I cannot use them for both or they overlap and become unreadable. If I use the markers for lyrics each marker is a small phrase.
 
Then when I need them for chords I have to erase them all and put markers in for chords.
 
If I need the words again I have to erase the chord markers and put the lyric markers in again.
 
If I could just add a second marker/ruler lane above it my problems would be solved.
 
Please work on this, thanks!
 
Lyric view is just not the same thing, the ruler gives me direct correspondence to various tracks. Lyric and chord markers let me know exactly where I am in the song and what exact chords are playing.
 
Please help vote this idea up peeps, two or more marker lanes would be handy for marking song changes and finding your place. Think about it, wouldn't it be nice to have your chords and lyrics always readily visible in your songs too?
 
I am faced with this dilemma nearly every time I make a song.
 
http://rexred.com plz like and share :)
2016/08/04 15:20:41
RexRed
I guess no one wants two marker lanes, well people it is your cakewalk too and if you don't care about usability then suffer without it like I do.
 
This is the second time I have asked for 2 marker lanes. I am now stalling on a project for that reason alone. I have to go in one by one and add these markers. It is so time consuming I am wondering about other daws. 
 
It would be nice to not have to go searching for a piece of paper with the chords or lyrics associated with each project they are in my project where they belong. This is such a simple thing, lyrics and chords... really the most rudimentary part of making music. And cakewalk does not address either other than a lyrics view that is nearly impossible to work with.
 
If you can't give us two marker lanes then give us text tracks.
2016/08/04 17:05:39
TheMaartian
I don't want to be a knucklehead and suggest something you've tried, so this is more of a "help me understand" question. I'm new to this issue, so it's as much about getting myself smarter. Thanks for understanding.
 
My question is around entering lyrics using the Staff view. It seems like if you have, or can create, a MIDI melody track to attach the lyrics to, it would scroll with the play head during playback. It also seems possible to notate chords the same way.
 
Or, am I suffering from the following?
 

2016/08/04 22:33:04
RexRed
Thanks TheMaartian for your post.
 
Lyric view is VERY buggy, crashes if you try and edit it, it is basically unusable. Forget one hyphen and try and add it after the fact and you have to start all over again. Having to associate every syllable with a midi event is so difficult and old school.   
 
Using lyrics view is worse than deleting my lyrics markers and replacing them with chord markers back and forth.
 
It can be done but consider priorities, lyrics and chords should be a no brainier with music. 
 
I love the other features but text integration is a ground level necessity, really.
 
It takes me hours to even attempt to put lyrics into lyric view and usually I give up at my own embarrassment of my clients who put up a stink as to the time it consumes.
 
I might also mention another thing.
 
I have one client who has a terrible sense of rhythm, their voice quality is nice and they sing the lines right except they are always late in delivering them. I try to get them to think ahead as all good musicians do but this is of no avail usually. (No it is not high latency it is bad rhythm.)
 
One weird oddity is if they can see the markers they sing them in time along with the creation of their wave file during recording.
 
Something about seeing the project files along with the markers bypasses their natural rhythm delay. They don't mind me putting in the markers but working in lyric view they and I find too time consuming and try and edit a lyric change and the whole hierarchy crumbles. I might ask have you programmers even tried to use lyric view?
 
I used to work with FSK and SMPTE time code long ago. This lyric problem reminds me of that. Because I only had 8 tracks on my reel to reel, the drum tracks had to be done prior to recording any other tracks and recorded onto tape first.
 
That meant knowing where every nuance of cymbal crash and drum rolls occurred beforehand, they had to be programmed in before any of the other instrument tracks could be recorded. This kind of thing taxes even the most musically minded. It would take me days to map out the song on paper way back in cakewalk for DOS. Cakewalk fixed that problem, yay! Now this problem needs addressing to bring the text integration into Sonar music up to the current state of the art.
 
 
2016/08/04 22:45:32
RexRed
BTW anyone still got these? :) I had cakewalk for DOS too. This is my original disk.

2016/08/05 01:32:29
RexRed
Why a DAW Might Not Be the Best Song Writing Tool
https://tropicaltheartist.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/why-a-daw-might-not-be-the-best-song-writing-tool/
 
This person has hit on the problem I am outlining here in this thread.
 
 
Excerpt
"Very few DAWs (if any) help you write lyrics to chord sequences, or make lyrics fit into the rhythm of your track.  At best, you might use a DAW to loop a section of music, while you try to write the lyrics, but it’s not too good at supporting this lyric to music fitting process.  Whether you start with chords first, or melody first, or lyrics first, fitting them together is usually not best done inside a DAW."
 
Comment:
Why are DAW's terrible for writing lyrics? Because they have terrible text interfaces into the midi stream.
 
The problem is adding chords and lyrics inside a DAW because the DAWs have not been modified to accommodate lyrics AND chord lanes. The concept is quite simple...
 
There needs to be at least two text lanes. Both are equally as vital.
 
And how many songs have lyrics and chords? Nearly all of them. How many DAWS accommodate text and chord lanes in the track view? Nearly none of them.
 
Try and get a guitar player to record along to your song by reading the chords strewn out on a piece of paper, it is terrible.
 
I need text tracks yesterday...
 
Why shouldn't a DAW aid the creative song making process from start to finish?
One that does will have a superior feature that none other has and most song writing artists need.
 
I would like to know that this is going to be addressed soon.
 
Excerpt"
"You see, a DAW is designed from the point of view of you already knowing what you want to record."
 
Comment:
Really? 
2016/08/05 10:23:33
AntManB
I use markers for lyrics too and agree that it might be useful to have some way of having different groups of markers that you can turn on and off.  I'm not sure that two marker lanes is the best way to implement it though.
 
As a workaround, some people have talked about using a dummy midi track to add annotations using clip names.  I haven't tried this myself but it sounds reasonably straightforward and could work well for lyrics if you kept that track next to the relevant vocal track.
 
AMB
 
2016/08/05 15:08:19
RexRed
Thanks AntManB! I had that ideal lurking in my mind I considered using audio clips but my mind had not gotten far enough into the idea to consider midi clips. I will try that for this song and see how it works out. 
 
I would really never dream of writing lyrics in Cakewalk, I use Microsoft Word because the spellcheck just makes things easier. (and rhymer.com always got that open)
 
For me and my way of creating a song in a DAW is like flight in getting the song off the ground.
 
I write the lyrics and sometimes, not always, the chords. Sometimes the chords are straight forward and sometimes they are quite a bit more complex and convoluted.
 
Each song is very different but, I first find a basic drum track that fits the song style. Either a drum loop or these days more often, Addictive Drums 2.
 
I usually use a basic beat rather than the metronome because I figure I will need drums anyway and it sounds more realistic. Though sometimes I will leave the metronome on anyway while recording to tell where beat one is accentuated in each measure.
 
Then I try and play the song on my guitar and sing it into one audio track. I allow the vocals and guitar together in this track because it will only be a reference track and not be in the final song. Sometimes I will use two tracks but the guitar will still bleed into the vocal mic. 
 
This is where I am usually looking over to a lyrics page in Word that I have resized both the cakewalk window and the Word window so they can fit side by side. Mind you, this takes my eyes off cakewalk for the most part. This is getting the song off the ground. Once I have the reference track recorded I can then begin nailing down the song structure. This is where markers come in. Recording this reference track saves me hours of work. Otherwise I would have to map out the song on paper and that really is very tedious.
 
This way my reference track is easily mapped out to cakewalk's predetermined tempo. I play an estimation of how long the instrumental sections will be but I can split my reference track and move the section later to add or subtract a measure or two. 
 
As for the basic chord track I find a piano or guitar to be a good reference rather than a pad.
 
A piano has a nice attack where a pad is a bit to murky for some to sing along to.
 
This process is where the markers help to really map out the song and make it easy to add vocals and other instrument tracks along side the reference track. At that point with the markers the reference track can even be muted so as not to distract.
 
Not all songs I can do like this, sometimes I have to use a piano rather than an acoustic guitar or even a loop for my reference track and sometime I do not know at all how the vocal melody goes.
 
In this case I need to be able to sing several takes and experiment with the vocal melody and timing.
 
Once vocal comping is done then I can do my vocal markers. By this time my markers are usually chords.
 
Each song is different and the chords and lyric timing often evolve differently depending on the song difficulty and style.
 
Having two wheels under me (vocal markers and chord markers) help steady and balance the song till it can get off the ground.
 
Whether you think of it as getting off the ground or landing the song, the principle of needing two text lanes for chords and lyrics is still the same. Once these two text tracks have been fully satisfied then song can now be glued into place with other instrumentation and vocal tracks.
 
This probably belongs in a techniques thread but oh well it also cements my case for the need for easy to insert, on the fly, lyric and chord text events. 
 
I try and get the song mapped out fully before adding too many instrument and melodyne tracks. Sliding whole sections of a song to insert a measure can be tricky after the fact but it can be done with a bit of wrangling and cakewalk's great editing tools.
 
(Psst, the smart tool would be great for adding and editing text tracks.)
 
:)
2016/08/05 15:38:21
TheMaartian
RexRed
... 
I would really never dream of writing lyrics in Cakewalk, I use Microsoft Word because the spellcheck just makes things easier. (and rhymer.com always got that open)
...

FWIW, I use Rhyme Genie ($25) and it's companion editor, song manager and pitch journal, TuneSmith, from Idolumic. Just love the combo.
 
http://www.rhymegenie.com/
 
Check out the videos. 
2016/08/05 20:29:37
RexRed
Hey TheMaartian!
 
I was unaware of that program TuneSmith, EXCELLENT TIP!
 
I am going to buy it along with the rhymer plugin. It does more than I need but, that is a sign of a great program!
 
Who knows I may evolve into the deeper features of the program with time.
 
This is also a great program for Cakewalk Platinum to offer import of chords and lyrics into their ermmm... ahem, "newly designed text tracks"! 
 
REALLY excited about purchasing it and it works with Windows 10 too!!!
 
TOTALLY AWESOME!
THANKS!
 
 
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