• SONAR
  • move an entire arrangement in the timeline (p.2)
2014/11/13 14:15:13
Anderton
I need to do this all the time, here's my method. It's easiest if you can snap to grid, but that's not essential. This particular method assumes no tempo changes are within the section to be moved; there are other options if tempo changes are involved.
 
1. Select all, place the Now time at the beginning of the section to be moved, and type S (split).
2. Select all, place the Now time at the end of the section to be moved, and type S (split).
3. Select all, and drag in the time ruler between the start and end times of the section to be moved. Now all the clips in that section are selected.
4. Right-click on any of the clips and choose "Create Selection Group from Selected Clips."
5. Go to Options and make sure "Select Track Envelopes with Clips" is selected.
 
You can now move the section as one entire block. Unless you ungroup the clips, you can keep moving it around as needed. If you need to include tempo changes that are within the section you're moving:
 
1. First go to Options and make sure "Select Track Envelopes with Clips" is selected, then follow steps 1-3 above. Step 4 is optional.
2. Select Cut Special or Copy Special, and check everything. 
3. Place the Now time where you want the section to start.
4. Choose Paste Special, and make sure Advanced is enabled so you can select tempo changes and automation envelopes as elements to be pasted.
 
That should do it.
 
 
 
2014/11/14 12:10:21
Anderton
FYI the clip grouping feature is really helpful when songwriting. You can create "blocks" of chorus, verse, solo, etc. and move around as you work out the arrangement.
2014/11/14 12:35:59
Vastman
Move EVERYTHING should be a feature request for X4, IMO... This should be a simple action, as "create space" between xxxx and yyyyy.  Or a pull down menue which lists everything that can be tagged.  It's kinda wierd that some elements of a song/arrangement are excluded...
2014/11/14 12:43:24
Beepster
Perhaps an "Insert/Remove Measure" feature with copy/paste functionality could be something Cake could work on for this type of work. Basically have it all controlled from the timeline instead of the Clips Pane. Insert X amount of time to create a hole at a point and everything (tempo map, automation, EVERYTHING) after that point moves over to accomodate. Remove would do the reverse (or have an option to retain the hole without anything moving). It could all be sent to the clipboard (or its own clipboard with options to remove specific things like tempo, automation, clips, etc). Well you get the idea and honestly it is such a startling simple concept I've always been a little surprised that things don't already work that way within Sonar.
 
I do however think at the moment this might be easier to accomplish with finished music in video editing software (just move the audio around overtop the video) but I'm assuming the OP is still composing the score so obviously that wouldn't really work.
 
Anyway I would try enabling two projects to be open at a time within Preferences then importing the video into the new second project then copying the elements as needed into the second project from the first to where they are needed. It might be a less confusing way to approach this task. That way you could do range selections of your clips, automation and tempo map with "Snap to or by" or by marker or whatever and basically migrate it section by section and element by element as needed. To me that would be less confusing than trying to fiddle with it all in the same project and potentially screwing something up.
 
 
2014/11/14 13:05:18
Anderton
Vastman
Move EVERYTHING should be a feature request for X4, IMO... This should be a simple action, as "create space" between xxxx and yyyyy.

 
You can do this already with insert measures.
 
Or a pull down menue which lists everything that can be tagged.  It's kinda wierd that some elements of a song/arrangement are excluded...



It the examples I gave above, everything is included - envelopes, tempo changes, markers, etc. I think the problem is that these aren't checked by default, so people assume there's an issue. And the only way you can expose these parameters while pasting is to click the "Advanced" button on the Paste Special dialog.
2014/11/14 13:20:31
Beepster
Anderton
Vastman
Move EVERYTHING should be a feature request for X4, IMO... This should be a simple action, as "create space" between xxxx and yyyyy.

 
You can do this already with insert measures.
 
Or a pull down menue which lists everything that can be tagged.  It's kinda wierd that some elements of a song/arrangement are excluded...



It the examples I gave above, everything is included - envelopes, tempo changes, markers, etc. I think the problem is that these aren't checked by default, so people assume there's an issue. And the only way you can expose these parameters while pasting is to click the "Advanced" button on the Paste Special dialog.




Okay... thanks for that. I knew there was a window to select all that stuff and I figured it was the "Advanced" something or other but I was not sure about the Tempo Map data being included. So basically all that Insert?remove stuff I was talking about is already there but is bury and needs to be set manually?
 
Anyway... controlling that type of thing directly from the Timeline and being able to have that method its own entity with its own preferences and the like might get rid of a lot of confusion about this because it is a heck of a lot weirder than it needs to be for what seems like it should be a very basic task.
2014/11/14 13:22:10
Anderton
Beepster
Perhaps an "Insert/Remove Measure" feature with copy/paste functionality could be something Cake could work on for this type of work. Basically have it all controlled from the timeline instead of the Clips Pane. Insert X amount of time to create a hole at a point and everything (tempo map, automation, EVERYTHING) after that point moves over to accomodate. Remove would do the reverse (or have an option to retain the hole without anything moving).

 
What am I missing? It seems Project > Insert Time/Measures already does this for whatever tracks you've selected. If you've selected all tracks, it moves everything over by the specified amount. Cut special allows removing a section and deleting the hole.
 
As long as everything is enabled properly, you drag across the timeline after selecting all, specify the correct track where you want paste to start, etc., then copy special, cut special, and paste special work very well. Granted there are a lot of options that require your attention to get it right, but these can be life-savers when you want to paste starting in a different track, paste a certain number of repeats, etc. 
2014/11/14 13:27:06
Brando
Nice tip. Thanks Craig!
2014/11/14 13:37:14
Beepster
Anderton
Beepster
Perhaps an "Insert/Remove Measure" feature with copy/paste functionality could be something Cake could work on for this type of work. Basically have it all controlled from the timeline instead of the Clips Pane. Insert X amount of time to create a hole at a point and everything (tempo map, automation, EVERYTHING) after that point moves over to accomodate. Remove would do the reverse (or have an option to retain the hole without anything moving).

 
What am I missing? It seems Project > Insert Time/Measures already does this for whatever tracks you've selected. If you've selected all tracks, it moves everything over by the specified amount. Cut special allows removing a section and deleting the hole.
 
As long as everything is enabled properly, you drag across the timeline after selecting all, specify the correct track where you want paste to start, etc., then copy special, cut special, and paste special work very well. Granted there are a lot of options that require your attention to get it right, but these can be life-savers when you want to paste starting in a different track, paste a certain number of repeats, etc. 




I'm more referring to what the OP is talking about as in absolutely everything in the project is moved with a simple procedure as opposed to having to making sure all tracks, automation, tempo, controller changes, markers, whatever are going to make the desired moves. As you said making sure EVERYTHING is going to do what is needed can be confusing and weird. I'm basically saying there should be a simple "Everything" option from the timeline where we don't have to think about that kind of stuff and know immediately that we created the holes, moves, cuts, etc across all views, data or whatever. I guess at this point (after your answer about how it can all be done with some fiddling) is about simplification of the process. Maybe also have it accessible from the Navigator view.
 
This may sound weird but I used to have quite a few selection problems in X1 and X2 that made editing difficult and sketchy. In X3 those have been resolved as far as I can tell but now I get concerend about automation, MIDI stuff, markers, tempo stuff, etc not really doing what's needed with a bulk edit (due to my own inexperience with these things because I usually wait until a song is fully composed before screwing around with a lot of that stuff). Something like that would just help me, personally, feel more comfortable making those types of full project changes. Knowaddimean?
 
Anyway... just pontificating. Absolutely not a compaint or trying to be argumentative but something I think would be cool for the Bakers to implement. It would just make things a lot simpler for stuff like this.
 
Cheers.
2014/11/14 14:27:56
Anderton
Beepster
I'm more referring to what the OP is talking about as in absolutely everything in the project is moved with a simple procedure as opposed to having to making sure all tracks, automation, tempo, controller changes, markers, whatever are going to make the desired moves. As you said making sure EVERYTHING is going to do what is needed can be confusing and weird.

 
Actually, I said "Granted there are a lot of options that require your attention to get it right, but these can be life-savers when you want to paste starting in a different track, paste a certain number of repeats, etc." So just check everything if you don't have to add any restrictions. But there are simpler options as well...keep reading.
 
I'm basically saying there should be a simple "Everything" option from the timeline where we don't have to think about that kind of stuff and know immediately that we created the holes, moves, cuts, etc across all views, data or whatever. I guess at this point (after your answer about how it can all be done with some fiddling) is about simplification of the process.

 
To insert, you have to tell the program where you want to insert, how much you want to insert, and call up an insert command. That's unavoidable. The only extra step the way it's done now is checking four boxes if you want everything moved over. That really doesn't seem that onerous, and besides, there there are plenty of times when you might not want to move something like tempo changes, because you're going to record different material but the tempo is already correct.
 
You may not be aware of this: If you want to move an entire section with automation, simply select all, drag across the timeline, click on any clip header, and drag. 
 
Once you get used to selecting all tracks and doing time selections with the timeline, it's really not that hard to do moves, cuts, pastes, etc. Sometimes it's not hard at all; with "paste special" you can slide over to make room for new, which automatically creates a hole the size of what you're pasting. Some people say some things won't slide over, but that's true only if a clip begins BEFORE the point where you're pasting - again, this makes sense because you may or may not want Sonar to split clips you haven't split yourself. If you don't, it works fine as is. If you do, just select all, place the cursor where you want to paste, and type S prior to pasting to split the clips.
 
Anyway... just pontificating. Absolutely not a compaint or trying to be argumentative but something I think would be cool for the Bakers to implement. It would just make things a lot simpler for stuff like this.



The problem is that you would still need to keep the other options, so there would end up being two ways to do things and I'm not sure the current method is all that difficult. Regardless of whatever protocol you used, you have to specify start and end points, you have to specify an operation (do you want to copy or cut), and if moving, you need to specify a destination. You'll have to do those no matter what, so a few intermediate steps that allow you to move or not move specific things doesn't seem that bad.
 
There are many ways to move things around and some are really simple, like the select all, define in timeline, click+drag option.
 
The bottom line is you need to know the options well enough so you can choose the simplest one for the task at hand. Hmmmm...seems like I have a good start on next Friday's Tip of the Week - "How to Move Big Sections Around Fast."
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