2018/06/12 21:03:35
Voda La Void
Well, this is a bit of a struggle so far.  I've got to figure my way out of this box.  
 
I was reading your last post and I kind of wish I would have started learning all this differently.  See, I mapped out the whole E major scale on my fret board, to start with, then worked from low E to high E, 3 notes per string.  I did this with E, A, C, D, G and F, and had planned to continue on this way.  
 
I would vocalize the position in the scale, so for E major I would start off "1", 3 notes per string up and then back down, then move up to F# and vocalize "2", rinse and repeat.  So, I got to the point where I could recognize the patterns of each mode, but since I'm blindly doing 3 notes per string, I never really "see" the mode, rather it just becomes the note I start with in the scale as opposed to really playing in that mode.  
 
So, I know how to start playing in all of the modes...their patterns are recognizable, but I'm struggling on how to play in them, exclusively, without just spilling back into noodling around in the relative major.  
 
I'll get it..but it's an adjustment.  Trying to see the mode instead of it all just disappearing into one big selection of notes.  
 
 
2018/06/12 22:08:51
Beepster
Voda La Void
Well, this is a bit of a struggle so far.  I've got to figure my way out of this box.  
 
I was reading your last post and I kind of wish I would have started learning all this differently.  See, I mapped out the whole E major scale on my fret board, to start with, then worked from low E to high E, 3 notes per string.  I did this with E, A, C, D, G and F, and had planned to continue on this way.  
 
I would vocalize the position in the scale, so for E major I would start off "1", 3 notes per string up and then back down, then move up to F# and vocalize "2", rinse and repeat.  So, I got to the point where I could recognize the patterns of each mode, but since I'm blindly doing 3 notes per string, I never really "see" the mode, rather it just becomes the note I start with in the scale as opposed to really playing in that mode.  
 
So, I know how to start playing in all of the modes...their patterns are recognizable, but I'm struggling on how to play in them, exclusively, without just spilling back into noodling around in the relative major.  
 
I'll get it..but it's an adjustment.  Trying to see the mode instead of it all just disappearing into one big selection of notes.  
 
 




What you just described sounds all good to me. I recommend trying it out the way I described for Starise but that is kind of a hack short cut. What we really want to do is be able to produce our modes by tone/steps/notes/keys and not worry about the grid.
 
The way I described the grid there does NOT produce many of the recommended ways to perform the modes for max efficiency. All it does is let you visualize and familiarize yourself with the entire grid sequentially.
 
Once you are familiar with said grid and can visualize and mentally move it around on the fretboard then you can start looking for "effiencies" in how you want to approach a lick or chord.
 
When I write something I am constantly probing around those 7 stacked patterns to find the best one to facilitate what I want to play and/or find different textures from the same chord using the various triad inversions and/or physical string combos (of course a low E string rings differently than a G string so that would be an example of the raw and physical nature of the guitar being manipulated for effect).
 
Stevie Ray Vaughn (and Jimi) were masters at this. That's why even simple stuff of their sounded so full and crazy.
 
For you, Voda, try this...
 
Visualize E Aeolian (Natural Minor) and strum/drone/noodle around in 1st position (using the open notes). After a few bars switch to a 1st position G Major chord (the "campfire" G or my preference G5... not a barre chord) and again drone/noodle around in the exact same 1st position pattern you were playing for the E but NOW focusing on the I, III and V of the G Major chord (the sweet notes). Then go back down to the E again.
 
G is the relative Major of E minor (and of course vice versa). You have essentially just moved back and forth between your natural Major and minor with very little extra movement, stress or overthinking. The shape of your hand to form the G chord already puts you in a prime position to efficiently launch into little G Major noodlings and I'm assuming you are already pretty decent at soloing in E minor.
 
Now try moving all that up to the 5th fret. So now your are using Amin and CMaj as your chords (and of course A natural minor and G natural Major as your modes). This time you will create a barre chord for your Amin at the 5th fret (and nooodle around over top) and for your CMaj chord you will use your pinky to fret the C on your low E string (8th fret), your "ring" (3rd) finger to play the E (III) of CMaj on the 7th fret of the A string and create a barre with your index finger across the 5th fret from the A string up to the B string (which I'll explain now).
 
Damn I really need to dig out my files but hopefully you get that...
 
Anyway to play your CMaj chord in that position just think of your GMaj chord in 1st position and all the fancy stuff you could do with it there. Now that barre you created across the 5th fret allows for all that to be done rather easily (if you have a strong pinky for the root... if not it needs to be developed). For a proper CMaj chord in that position you would only be sounding the D and G strings so you don't have to really worry about fully fretting the the barre on the A string BUT by having the barre more or less there starting at the A string you can do a nice sounding SRV style hammer-on on the A string from the 5th fret up to the 7th fret of your CMaj chord).
 
So I may not be describing that very well just now but you seem to be picking up what I'm slingin' and rolling with it.
 
What I'm really trying to convey with that exercise/experiment is that the very rigid pattern system I described is meant to be a launching pad and is mostly intended to teach pure fretboard mapping from a hyper reductionist angle. What you described is more in the spirit of modal guitar theory which is more dancing around that fretboard map in the most efficient way... if that makes sense.
 
What I've provided here (in this post) is an example of playing efficiently in two distinct modes without having to change position on the fretboard.
 
There are of course 7 primary chords and modes in each each key (ignoring Harmonic and Melodic minor silliness) so that means you can goof around like this with any 1st position patterns and chord shapes anywhere on the fretboard simply by moving it elsewhere and adjusting your left hand fingering so that where your open strings used to be you are instead using an Index finger barre and then compensating for the remainder of the pattern with your remaining fingers.... more or less.
 
umm... so, ya... that was a little chaotic but check it out and ask any questions. Gonna take a breather.
 
lol
 
Cheers!
 
 
2018/06/12 22:12:20
Beepster
BTW, what I described above is CAGED theory-ish so if you are familiar with that a bit or give that a quick overview online it might connect a few more dots for ya.
 
Relying solely on CAGED theory is not recommended by Beepster Inc or its affiliates.
 
;-)
 
2018/06/12 22:39:41
Beepster
uurrrrmmm... okay, so afterthoughts keep popping into my head so apologies if I'm seeming crazy/overposting but whatevs...
 
I also highly recommend looking (or more accurately STARING FOR HOURS) at full fretboard maps in scale books. Using everything I've said here try to focus your eyes and mind on those specific "stackable" 1st position modes up the fretboard. Use the low E as your mental barre chord for each step up the fretboard and you'll see the patterns stacking themselves within the overall pattern.
 
You will also see how the patterns overlap and more efficient possibilites emerge from said intertwixting or failing that look at the recommended fingering for that scale/mode in that position/key.
 
Those scale books generally only offer one option per position though when there are obviously different interpretations.
 
One other thing in regards to the "3 notes per string" concept.
 
Even in the best scenario for "3 notes per string" (although exactly what you want) there will always be one string that only has 2 notes. In mostly the G string but in the case of a straight E to E Locrian the G string plays three notes while the B string plays two.
 
But yes... 3 notes per string is a good general principal to maximize efficiency. It does need to be broken quite often though for many reasons so when I needs to be toss... toss that mutha.
2018/06/13 12:42:56
Voda La Void
Fretboard maps...scale books...stackable modes...I'm on it.  Thanks for the help, really.  I know this thread is for everybody but I appreciate the time you've spent posting all this.  It's pretty awesome.  
 
 
2018/06/13 14:27:17
Starise
Awesome yes!  Lots of great info. Thanks!
2018/06/13 19:50:42
Beepster
No problem guys. It's good for me to nerd out on this stuff every so often anyway as a refresher.
 
There's a lot for you guys to muck about with now so dig in and let me know if you get stuck or have any additional queries. I usually check the CH once a day even though I'm not posting as much as I used to (this thread excluded... lulz).
 
Cheers!
2018/06/13 21:10:36
dmbaer
Relevant to this topic is a new (I think new, anyway) piece of software on sale right now really cheap:
 
https://www.pluginboutique.com/product/3-Studio-Tools/72-Utility/4447-InstaScale?utm_source=PIB+Optin+List&utm_campaign=7d7ee1efea-NL+100118+ALL_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_168c8b9b40-7d7ee1efea-315353997&mc_cid=7d7ee1efea&mc_eid=8121ad76f4
 
For the money, anybody really interested in getting proficient in modes and alternate scale possibilities may find this quite valuable.
2018/06/13 21:35:30
ØSkald
Rick Beato has some great videos here.
 
What You Should Know About Chord Families and Their Modes

 
Music Theory Lecture - What Every Pro Musician Needs To Know

 
Music Theory Lecture - What Every Pro Musician Needs To Know Pt 2

2018/06/13 21:36:03
Beepster
dmbaer
Relevant to this topic is a new (I think new, anyway) piece of software on sale right now really cheap:
 
https://www.pluginboutique.com/product/3-Studio-Tools/72-Utility/4447-InstaScale?utm_source=PIB+Optin+List&utm_campaign=7d7ee1efea-NL+100118+ALL_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_168c8b9b40-7d7ee1efea-315353997&mc_cid=7d7ee1efea&mc_eid=8121ad76f4
 
For the money, anybody really interested in getting proficient in modes and alternate scale possibilities may find this quite valuable.




GuitarPro is pretty durned good for this stuff too. At least it used to be.
 
Should be used as a reference/experimental sandbox/musical calculator though just for confirmation. Ideally the player would eventually be able to do the calculations in their heads on the fly which is why I like the chart paper method coupled with tons of practice.
 
These days though, instead of chart paper, I use Windows Notepad. I have a bunch of blank templates for notation, tablature (my own crazy take on tab that includes a bunch of extra relevant info), fretboard diagrams and so on.
 
I just pull up the correct template, copy it to whatever doc I'm working on and drop the appropriate info into the blank.
 
The reason I use Notepad is because of the raw [CODE] style formatting. It keeps everything lined up whereas any programming that formats text automatically screws it all up (like this forum... otherwise I would have typed up some charts for ya'll).
 
I really gotta get back to working on my crazy website about all this. I kind of bailed on it to learn all this production stuff but I've got a decent handle on all that now I think (I HOPE... after 5+ years, lol).
 
And Mr. Bauer... I've known you to be one of the most musically intellectual posters around these parts so if you have any extra thoughts, critiques or opinions as to what I've posted have at 'er. As much as I know I'm still a self taught hack.
 
;-)
 
Cheers.
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