Hardware units are necessarily used for bass management by mastering guys because they don't have the luxury of being able to work with the original tracks. If all you have is stems or a 2-track or a 5.1 mix to work with, you need to be able to manipulate the existing bass content outside the box. But if you're the mixer, it would seem to me that you could achieve the same results with a plugin. Mind you, I have never done surround so this is conjecture on my part.

On this link http://24bit.turtleside.com/ there are downloads for the above mentioned Lplex (ac3)

Lplex is not an ac3 encoder. It writes uncompressed PCM audio to a DVD-Video disc. DVD-Video can do uncompressed PCM audio at up to 24 bit 48 kHz 6 channel. Or 2 channels of 24/96.  Just wanted to make sure that was clear.

Regarding bass management, I haven't used either of those products you mentioned. But yes, bass management is just filtering and routing. I took a quick glance at the plugin.  Since Sonar doesn't properly support surround VST plugins, this might not work correctly in Sonar.  But try the demo and see.

You could also pick up a set of consumer surround speakers to do a mix check. Logitech makes some decent ones.

The Blue Sky unit is going to be your best friend since it is a surround volume control knob.  If you are serious about this, have the cash, and don't yet have a surround volume control, it looks like a good solution. You might want to investigate other surround volume controls as well.

Thank you, that's great news! The $40 for Voxengo's plugin is a much more attractive deal! When all my gear arrives, I'll buy it and let you know how it goes.

There's lots of information out there about surround music.



I'd start by reading Tomlinson Holman's book http://www.amazon.com/Surround-Sound-Second-Up-running/dp/0240808290/ref=dp_cp_ob_b_title_0. Bobby Owsinski's surroundassociates.com website has lots of info.


Listen to a lot of stuff: 
Beck - Sea Change
Donald Fagen - Morph the Cat 
Roxy Music - Avalon 
Porcupine Tree  - In Absentia


To record live acoustic events for surround mixing and distribution, you can use microphones or techniques that you already know. ORTF, X/Y, Blumlein pair, M/S, etc. with a pair or two of hall mics and spot mics for soloists. You can apply this to drum overheads, room mics, etc., for acoustic guitars, pianos, etc. in rock, jazz and pop.


5.1 is an ideal delivery method whether you have one channel or five. A mono mix is at its best delivered from a full range center channel. LCR stereo is almost always better than LR stereo. Quad - 4.0 - can sound great on a 5.1 system (the new Chicago Transit Authority release from Rhino Handmade is great fun http://www.rhino.com/shop/product/chicago-chicago-transit-authority-dvd-quadraphonic). The LFE channel should probably never be used in a music mix.


Five identical speakers with a properly integrated subwoofer are needed. Bass Manaqement is simply the system crossover needed to integrate the subwoofer, as with the Blue Sky unit (I wouldn't use software for this - a plugin does not work at the right point in your gain stage, and will not deliver the best signal to noise compared to a hardware unit right before the power amplifiers). Whatever else you have done to your room acoustics will probably make your surround system work well.


Any audio interface with six or more outputs will work. You will need a hardware surround monitor controller to at least turn up and down the six speakers, like a Martinsound MultiMAX or that Blue Sky unit. I've used the Presonus Firestudio/MSR with good results.


Distribution is tough. You can't burn an SA-CD, you can burn a DVD-A but it'll cost a lot. You can burn a video DVD with 5.1 24/48 audio that plays in DVD-A players with Minnetonka DiskWelder Bronze, and a demo of that with an affordable upgrade came with SONAR Producer at one point. DTS and Dolby Digital encoders are expensive and by nature lossy. Fraunhofer has a Surround MP3 encoder for free (but it's MP3...).
 

Reference Material:

These bands / artists have done amazing work with DTS / SACD over the past 10 years or so.  I highly recommend obtaining what they have done for reference or general listening bliss!

Beck - Sea Change SACD

The Flaming Lips - At War With the Mystics DVDA
                             Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots DVDA
                             The Soft Bulletin DVDA

NIN - The Downward Spiral SACD

Porcupine Tree - In Absentia DVDA
                           Deadwing DVDA
                           Fear of a Blank Planet DVDA
                           The Incident DVDA

Porcupine Tree's albums are just amazing, beautiful.  The Flaming Lips really use some wild panning techniques.  Beck's is about the highest fidelity I have ever heard.  NIN is mastered perfectly.

Lplex is not an ac3 encoder. It writes uncompressed PCM audio to a DVD-Video disc. DVD-Video can do uncompressed PCM audio at up to 24 bit 48 kHz 6 channel. Or 2 channels of 24/96.  Just wanted to make sure that was clear. Regarding bass management, I haven't used either of those products you mentioned. But yes, bass management is just filtering and routing. I took a quick glance at the plugin.  Since Sonar doesn't properly support surround VST plugins, this might not work correctly in Sonar.  But try the demo and see. You could also pick up a set of consumer surround speakers to do a mix check. Logitech makes some decent ones. The Blue Sky unit is going to be your best friend since it is a surround volume control knob.  If you are serious about this, have the cash, and don't yet have a surround volume control, it looks like a good solution. You might want to investigate other surround volume controls as well.

tarsier

Thank you Tarsier - I had no idea that DVD-V discs support uncompressed audio, thanks for clearing that up - I hate reading false info online, so please correct every error you see!

You worried me slightly by saying Sonar does not properly support surround VSTs - please define 'properly' - what aspect of surround VSTs is limited/unsupported in Sonar?

Regarding gear and monitor controllers, yes, I am serious - as far as my budget for this allows! I've got some basic gear to get me going on order, just waiting for it to arrive - x5 HS80s, monitor controller etc.

Seriousfun, thank you very much for your post, just what I was looking for. I knew Owinski was into surround, but had never come across that site.I've also bought the book you linked to. 

You worried me slightly by saying Sonar does not properly support surround VSTs - please define 'properly' - what aspect of surround VSTs is limited/unsupported in Sonar?

Sonar treats all multichannel VSTs as stereo-with-sidechain-inputs. So you can't use a surround VST like you would a surround DX plugin like the Sonitus.

If you try to insert a surround VST on a Surround Bus in Sonar, you will just get stereo instances of it inserted multiple times into the Surround Bridge. Not the desired behavior of one instance of the plugin inserted in the surround bus without the surround bridge.

That's why I suggested you try before you buy any surround VSTs. Surround DX plugins work fine, but I don't think anyone makes any except the Cakewalk Sonitus ones, and the Pantheon reverb back in the day. The surround Pantheon isn't even bundled with Sonar anymore.

Good read on surround mixing / mastering:

http://emusician.com/tutorials/5-1_mix/

Hey guys.  I have been sucessfully mixing and mastering surround audio from SONAR.
I have been using a DTS encoder to take all 6 separate channels and output them to one DTS file / mix.

Now, it seems I'm having trouble burning for playback in my DVD player (or any standard DVD player).

My output options in the encoder are:
DTS WAV (*.wav)
DTS Padded (*.dts)
DTS Compact (*.cpt)

Which format is correct for burning to a DVD?
Should I burn to a DVDR or CDR?

I burned a few .ISO files of one surround track using DVD-Audio Solo, but after I burn the .ISO to a DVDR, they dont play in my DVD player. 

Perhaps I'm doing something wrong with the burning process.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Hi Rootdogg, great that you seem to be getting on well! The correct encoder output option to use depends on your authoring program, I've never used DVD-Audio Solo, so I can't tell you which one it likes - trial and error is probably the easiest way to tell.

Well my speakers have arrived, not my monitor controller yet, but it's all very exciting. I've come across a major bummer though, Sonar does not seem to be the DAW to use for surround. As tarsier warned, no surround plugins work inside Sonar, including the Waves 360 Surround tools which is a major setback for me. In fact, the only plugins that seem to function as they should (even when inserted on a track, not a bus) are the Sonitus plugins! I hope that it's user error, so I'll describe my problem and hopefully someone can tell me I have a small brain and give me a workaround/fix:

I insert a stereo plugin on a stereo track, routed to a surround bus. Depending on the plugin, I either get a weird 'grating' noise, or it starts out functioning as it should, then it's output becomes more and more delayed as time goes on, eg. I insert a reverb on a snare track, and after a while, it's as if I've applied a delay to the snare, I can hear a distinct echo that increases with time. Is this a VST/DXi issue? Maybe there's some delay compensation for surround that I don't know about. But like I said, this happens when inserting across a track, as well as in SurroundBridge on a bus.