Voda La Void
Danny hit the nail on the head - we amateurs hit export, and in our minds, we are done.  
 
But I would like to know what my tracks would sound like mastered.  Sounds expensive.  Suggestions?  I don't have the engineering skills, nor the interest, in learning that part myself.  I don't mind paying someone, but I have no idea what kind of expense I'm inviting....

It's really not even an amateur thing, Voda. If I can be honest with you...I myself sometimes have a problem mastering my own material simply because I'd never hit that export button if I wasn't happy. I usually leave limiting and final eq curves for mastering, which in my case is usually a slight high pass, maybe a little low pass or a mid bump or cut. I do such little mastering on my own stuff because I've done it all in the mix.
 
Realistically speaking, you guys have too. You don't need all the mastering that I hear in some songs. The other thing to consider is how far we go with the term "mastering".
 
It's more work for me to "master" an entire album making it sound coherent and leveled while choosing the right song to create the actual mastering curve than it is to literally master a song.
 
See, the other part of the mastering stage that gets missed is how we literally prepare an album for production. PQ sheets, ISRC codes, UPC/EAN codes, fade ins, fade outs, final limiting, dither, sample rate conversion, segues, and all the stuff that DOESN'T get talked about. Most music today does NOT need extensive mastering. Mastering is what ruins it.
 
The other stuff is what gets overdone. We get so close to our own material, we can't always make the right calls. It's really true. Then again, if you go through stages when you do this stuff and change hats while staying focused, you can usually do fairly well. But like I said before, even I sort of shake my head when mastering my own stuff...and I sort of know what I'm doing. :)
 
As for "what your stuff would sound like" I'd say "different" than if you did it yourself. I had a client once that did his own mastering for years and decided to try me. I thought I gave him an awesome master, and I mastered the song 3 times. He sent me his mastered version and wound up using his own.
 
In my opinion, his master was loaded with bass and excessive compression. BUT...that was what HE wanted and what HE felt he needed. So he will never use my services again and in his eyes, I failed him. In my eyes, he was too close to his own material to understand his track sounded over-processed and ruined.
 
Some people just don't know what to listen for. Louder isn't always better. More bass isn't always better. A mix that is not as loud that is mastered correctly, will go up and up and up without distortion. A mix that is mastered loud, stops at a certain point and will turn into distorted, jumbled audio if you keep turning it up.
 
A mix that is mastered with too much bass, will distort. A track mastered with the right bass can always have a little brought in via car eq to enhance if needed, and it should not distort. Doesn't everyone post master via car eq on everything anyway? LOL! I personally don't....all eq's in my vehicles and gear are set to flat and never move. If I have to move them, the mix/master needs to be improved. ;)
 
The other thing to consider is, most mastering facilities that offer free stuff or deals on things, are bogus. No matter who they are. They are using a general curve and boosting the volume making you think you got a good master. You can do what they do with a high pass, low pass and Sonar's Concrete Limiter. These free guys that give you 30 seconds or whatever for free crack me up.
 
For what it's worth, it would take me the same amount of time to master a 30 second clip as it would a 4 minute songs. The reason being....it's not the length (ugh, sounds sexual lol) that determines anything. The same eq curve I'd create using the same array of mastering plugins would take the same amount of time, roughly.
 
I still have to create the curve and choose the effects....and before I do that, I have to pre-master the song. This takes about 40 minutes to an hour or more depending on the song if I am REALLY doing my job. No mastering engineer that takes pride in his or her work can really do things the right way in under 30 minutes...and that's pushing it.
 
I'm probably too meticulous in what I do and could probably make more money if I cared less and used tools that auto removed artifacts and auto-leveled the audio. When I have, though some of those methods work for some things, something always seems to suffer because of using stuff like that. With my method, nothing suffers and no stone is un-turned.
 
But, by the time I scan the song(s) while keeping a log and the times where I've edited for pops, clicks, artifacts, hums, other oscillations and then manually level the audio so that I don't have to over compress, I've probably put in at the least, 20 minutes. And that's if things are super minimal. I've never done a pre master that was 10 minutes. It's always 20-40 at the least due to removing EVERY bad peak by hand.
 
Could I do it using a limiter? Sure...that's what all the others do....and your audio CAN suffer from this.I could use an auto hiss remover on things....but then we wonder why a piece in the middle where there is an acoustic guitar or something that can benefit from a nice high end frequency, now sounds more dull.
 
Nothing should ever be treated automatically. This is where you lose your dynamics if you are not careful and can pick up other artifacts. I'm always aware of every little snare hit, rim shot, stick hit on a drum mic, guitar pick against a body, singer's teeth hitting the mic and all the other things the engineer failed to address. That's what a mastering engineer is supposed to listen for. Do it right, or don't do it at all. I can sleep sound every night knowing I've never ripped off a soul and have poured my all into their material.
 
As for it being expensive? For the most part, the good mastering guys charge about $100+ per song depending on what needs to be done. I don't think that's expensive when you consider how in depth one has to be to do this stuff. We are the last guys to touch the audio before it gets sent to duplication. We are chosen because we are trusted to make a difference for the better and anything less will not be acceptable.
 
I get paid for my ears alone due to the things I can hear that others may not. I can't tell you how many times I've saved people just because I heard things that were crucial that they either couldn't hear, or didn't realize at the time. You most likely will NOT get that type of service from guys that are offering discounted mastering. Then again, guys like that are fine if you are not releasing a product for sale. However, you have to ask yourself "how important is my music?" ;)
 
-Danny

sven450
Great conversation.  Thanks Danny and Jeff for being awesome.  Danny's point about reference material is spot on.  Music, like today's fashion or food or any other art, is all over the place.  There are no rules, there is only the creativity and know how to do what you want, and do it properly.  
 
For someone like me trying to mix and "master" my own songs, this can be very tough.  
Glass half empty:  no rules* makes learning the rules very tough
Glass half full: no rules makes options open for creative ideas and possible originality
 
* obviously there are some rules, but it is the wild west out there in terms of acceptable expectation

Well said, sven. That is exactly how I look at things. Keep the rules set on things that you know are blatantly obvious. Experiment and be you on everything else. :)

Thanks, Danny, for such a complete post.  Given me a bit to think about.  I'll probably look to mastering once I get this project completed, this time.  And I'll have to be careful about who I choose, because I definitely want to avoid the auto-magic processing flow chart system.  
 
 

This thread is great!!

That last long post from Danny was great. SO much true information. Just want to share from another perspective. I have mastered my own material often and as I have said I find I can leave a week. That is the hard part I think. Who wants to wait around for a week. I hear it much fresher then and can make some usually good EQ and limiter settings.
 
I like the idea of putting the compressor over the mix and leaving it at that for the pre mastered mix.  Some light conditioning (I love that word. a good Danny word to describe something) ie mixing into a 2 buss compressor can be interesting and I find leads to a loud but dynamic and snappy master later on.
 
I think it is also interesting to get into the mix knowing you are going to master later on. If you have a clear idea of the sound of the final master you can well shape the mix to achieve it earlier on. And add some 2 buss compression over it to start with.
 
My car system sounds huge and excellent but I know it is not accurate. But I do know how the bottom end of very nice commercial masters sound and it is the perfect blend of depth eg deeper sounding bass and punch just up from there. When my teeth rattle in the car with say one of my mixes I know I need to get back in the studio and tame some excessive deep subby notes coming from somewhere etc..
 
Danny is so right about how a well mastered punch snappy dynamic mix will go louder up and up without breaking up. And PA's are one area where this really also holds true. I have been testing PA and speakers a bit lately and doing it with a well mastered CD.  My Steely Dan reference. Either of the last two CD's is a perfect reference. And to me it does not matter about the genre you are either going to do a live mix, or mix a track in your studio, a really nice reference like that will still tell you a lot about how the speakers and the room acoustics are sounding. Turn this up to no matter how loud even extreme high volumes and this CD still sounds nice and sweet! And it kicks even better up there! It feels like there is no limit as to how loud things could be turned up.  (just for reference those CD's are mastered around -11 dB FS rms (1 db louder than the K-12 broadcast reference) with a DR of around 10. Just enough snap to keep everything alive and well.)
 
It usually takes me an hour to master a track. And the time can go quick. I think all you have to do is really focus and listen in to the details of the music.  Do what Hi Fi enthusiasts can do. Ignore all the music for a moment and really listen to the sound of things.  How much compression is there and does it need any more and if so what type.  Is the EQ all sounding great. Now let’s make it louder with a limiter but do it carefully. How snappy (transients again!) is everything before and after limiting etc.. (Just use PSP Xenon and tell it how much louder you want to go!! LOL!)
 
What I find a bit distressing is when the client you are mastering for insists you just go that little bit louder but in doing so you know and can hear you are losing a bit of dynamics and punch. It is starting to sound like that sound Danny suggests, that not so good can’t get louder without the mix sounding distorted and crunchy. Turning that up loud just results in an unplesant sound hitting your ears.

Jeff Evans 
I like the idea of putting the compressor over the mix and leaving it at that for the pre mastered mix.  Some light conditioning (I love that word. a good Danny word to describe something) ie mixing into a 2 buss compressor can be interesting and I find leads to a loud but dynamic and snappy master later on.

One of the first things I do in a project, not even at the mixing stage but at the initial composing/arranging stage, is to through a compressor (The Glue) on the master bus. I've heard a lot of people say it's a good idea to mix into a 2-bus compressor but I like to write into it as well, especially when making music that has a strong kick keeping the groove. Just getting that little bit of needle bounce from the kick gets my foot tapping from the very start and definitely inspires me to keep working on the track. 

Wow...another great thread guys.  Great stuff!

This is a great thread. 
We have so many great engineers and producers here. It is so helpful to read about their experience.
For me, I highly recommend doing mix comparisons until you really understand your own system.
There are many modern songs that sound great IMO. The idea is to listen to pro mixes in your different environments so that you understand your mixing environment. 
Then, when you put up your own mix don't be afraid to compare. You might learn a lot about yourself. 
There is really no way to copy another's mix but maybe you will hear a tighter bottom end or cleaner highs. 
Maybe you will see how others like to mix drums vs. vocals depending on the genre. 
The main point being there really is tons to learn from others.
Engineers and producers develop their good ears through experience with includes their own work and also listening very carefully to others. 
That's why I like the song forums. It is fun and interesting to hear what others do. 

Gosh, mastering isn't a black art...yes it takes a while to learn...but as you long as follow a few rules and or a formula...you can master mastering.  It took me 15 years lol, but I'm confident I could master almost anything.
First, use a Linear Phase EQ and cut some top and bottom end...around 40hz and 18khz...but listen and you will hear.  Use a spectrum analyser to help you hear what your cutting.  If the mix is too muddy, cut some at 400hz.
 
Next, set-up your gain stage on the master buss...just remember each track you add to a mix adds to the overall level of the track.  If you aren't going over too much, you wont have any problems, but when you master you need at least 3-4 db of headrooom...after I've mixed I usually have to turn the main bus gain down anywhere from -3 to -9 db.
 
Then if you're really tricky like me, I like the Pro Channel tape emulator to help soften the transients...remember lightly as you go.  Then if you're like me and you've used the console emulator, place this over the top of the tape emulator.  Next use the Pro Channel EQ set to pure.  And brighten the top end, and add some bass, carve out any problems.  Watch the analyser again and it will tell you where to add to the mix...but also use your ears to learn what you are listening for.
 
Next a compressor, I like H-Comp by Waves because it has 4 different characteristics.  The release also can be set to the BPM of the host.  When setting the attack time, think about the drum transient or the thickest transient you're trying to compress.  Oh and then re-gain the compressor making sure you're not going over -3db...sticking with the -3db of headroom rule.
 
Next, I like to be tricky and I use Waves Kramer Master tape...this helps fatten transients, an issue in the digital realm.  Again set the gain up, and here's the trick...return any gain you've subtracted at the compression stage via the output level (it might be the record level...I can't quite picture it in my head).  The wow and flutter can be used to help with the transients and the hiss control helps the high end perk through...now this of course does create hiss, but this is the analogue emulation aesthetic, and is part of the flavor.  I've done extensive research on this as part of my Phd ;).
 
Next an EQ probably stick with the Linear Phase EQ...and hunt for the formant of the track...I can't give you rough EQ settings because its different for each track, but listen when the track has a bit of sparkle...I'd say air but the formant may be lower.
 
Finally a brickwall limiter, and again Sonar's Concrete Limiter is excellent, I use the soft-clip because it's part of the analogue emulation aesthetic.  If you find you have too much bottom end, back off the bass on the main EQ...it's better to let the soft-clip give bass punch, because it's what everyone loves from that era.   
 
Here is a master I prepared earlier https://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks/when-every-song-is-sung-ill-still-love-you
its a cover of a lost George Harrison track, which Ringo did a version of and George sued.  I've applied the above formula to this track. Now, I've could have squashed this track more and joined in the loudness wars, but I prefer to stick with the new luffs rules and this track conforms to this.
 
Danny is right, about one thing, which is if you're going to send a signal in and out of the box...then the above formula won't work.  For obvious reasons.  But in this day and age, and with a proper analouge emulation technique you don't need to.  http://themusic.com.au/news/all/2016/07/04/want-to-graduate-in-the-same-iconic-studios-the-beatles-recorded-their-albums-in/ read this if you want to understand why.  It's in the the console paradigm is dead, we're now teaching the analogue emulation technique...although they don't say that...it's in between the lines.
 
Finally, remember I've only given you the formula...for each section of the formula there is a variation...and again this is I think what Danny is talking about.  And learning to hear what you're listening for, without a person like Danny teaching you means you will spend 15 years like me hunting.  So in this way, both Jeff and Danny are correct.
 
Enjoy Peace and Love Ben   

I'm not sure if this will add a lot to the dynamics of the thread but I follow Rob Williams a bit and the prosound formula, much of it is free (mixing, mastering) and I find it a nice addendum to Groove 3 tutorials and all my YouTube subs...
 
Just yesterday, he sent me this, http://prosoundformula.com/how-to-master-a-song/ (30 minute video)
 
Scroll down to "Download the 7 Step Mastering Formula Infographic" and it's a nice and free pdf file, which I find informative...
 
I may take a crack at mastering if I get the time and e.g. ARC and the Lurssen Mastering Console, etc. just for my own enjoyment (but use a mastering engineer for promising work).
 
But, so much to do in the summertime :)