2016/04/21 18:28:07
Leizer
Starise
Thanks for those links Bob. 
 
I used everything I had at my disposal so far. I've tried micing from many angles including from above. I've used lots of different mics. I was able to make the sound better but not good enough to seriously include in a recording. I have a few decent violins. I used my best one which has a nice warm sound for a violin.
Unlike  many other instruments a violin uses the room space to add personality to the sound. A dead space probably means a dead violin sound. My space is smaller and has no ceiling treatments, so the sound hits the drywall about 5ft above my head. The result is a fairly lame sound with early reflections. A boxy not too cool sound. Mic too close and you hear the string scratches. 
 
My violin sounds  good in an auditorium. Small spaces, not so much.
 
Recording the sound and adding a good reverb to it later doesn't improve it much because it sucked to begin with.
 
I'm  really looking into those electric violins Bob mentioned. Thanks for your ideas and suggestions!


I've had these troubles myself, recording in small room with a lot of bad artifacts. I put
up a lot of matresses and made a small booth. I got it really dry but no reverb could repair the sound. Lately I been recording in my livingroom that has much nicer acoustics, with some matresses at the corners. And I'm playing into a reflexion filter. A much more natural sound without too many disturbing artifacts.
 
Earlier (late 90's to 5-6 years ago) I recorded only my electric violin (yamaha silent vln) and I couldnt get that warm distinctive violin sound out of it, although it was very easy to put on different effects.
2016/04/21 21:15:21
rumleymusic
What mic/mics are you using to record the violin?  What kind of sound do you want?
2016/04/21 21:55:09
rumleymusic
I probably record violins in a different context, usually chamber music, solo recitals, and concertos.  The main concept for me to get a good sound is most importantly to record in a good room.   It is important not to get too close to the instrument, and a small studio demands close microphone placement, so it is a non-starter.  Bad room sound = Bad violin sound.  If you record dead, you almost certainly will need a good slathering of reverb.  
 
Most of the time I will use a good main par a few feet back and a spot about 3 feet away from the sound board above the player.  
 
Here is a recent recording of the Mendelssohn Concert I did in December.  A main pair of Josephson C617 set mics for the orchestra, a Schoeps CMC622 spot for the violin few feet in front of the player.  and a few more spots for the winds, timpani, and bass.   It was in an auditorium, not too reverberant, so I helped it a bit with Flux Verb. 
https://soundcloud.com/rmap/violin-concerto
 
2016/05/03 10:34:49
Starise

I want to thank you all for your comments.
 
I apologize for taking such a long time to get back to this thread. I've been away and when I came back I didn't get back here because I was sidetracked.
 
I want to thank each of you for your comments on recording the violin. concerning the violin tone- When I went to buy my violin I was looking for a nice warm sounding instrument. Since it was my second violin I thought I knew something but I really didn't. I listened to at least 10 violins in the intermediate category and the one I picked was a very nice instrument a Romanian model. I picked it for the warm rounded tone.
 
What I didn't know was that strings can make such a huge difference and I think the strings were what really sold me on the violin. As I later found out the sales girl had worked for Di addario in the past and she had strung this violin up with Di addario Kaplan Amo's. Kaplan Amo's are known to soften up any harsh violin. The other thing I didn't know was that violin strings take some time to set in. Usually at least a week. During this time the timbre can change. So my nice soft violin sound was too soft after several weeks and a trade off of this type of synthetic string is that the response is sometimes less which can really throw a newb like me off....so I've ordered a set of Dominants with the Pirastro "gold" E string. Why am I telling you this ?...so you can see that there's so much more to the sound before you even think about recording. I hope after my string change I'll have a better defined and slightly more aggressive tone. 
 
Daniel I tried using several of my large diaphragm condenser mics and I have a small SDC...not a really good one. I haven't tried a ribbon yet. I haven't had any luck at all with stereo recordings. I suspect you have a nice large recording space. The recording you made is beautiful. I'm looking for a smooth natural not scratchy sound. I do have access to a church auditorium. That's a lot of trouble to go there and set up, but maybe it's worth it.
 
I am still wondering if instead of buying expensive mics and adding room treatments to my small space I would be better buying something like a decent NS design  and recording direct. I've heard the sound from those and they really don't sound electric to my ears, especially if I add some decent reverb.
 
There's also the choice to add a special pick-up bridge to my existing violin or buy an acoustic violin with the internal electric pickups in it. This is all expensive too, and I'm leary of changing the bridge in my violin because I like how it basically sounds now.
2016/05/03 10:42:17
Starise
Here's an example of my sound now. I put it way back into the mix because it's pretty lame. I probably should have pulled the track.
https://soundcloud.com/st...larry-hansen-tim-smith
 
2016/05/05 13:32:11
tlw
One thing worth considering are the AKG tiny clip on mic capsules, with the clip attached to the tailpiece and capsule pointed at the bridge. Microvox do a similar, cheaper product. I know quite a few fiddlers (and play a bit, badly) myself and though fiddle and violin aren't quite the same thing, very few of them like piezo pickups because they take out much of the attack and need a lot of eqing. OK for live use where feedback control, stage clutter and having to stay in the right spot for a mic on a stand are issues, but not so much for recording.

And yes, strings can make a huge difference to violins, even the choice of rosin affects tone and response. In my experience Dominants take around a month to really settle in. Genuine gut strings can apparently take up to two months. The bow makes a huge difference as well.
2016/05/05 23:57:19
rumleymusic
Some of those tiny instrument lavs are okay for live use.  The only one I would ever think of using for recording applications is the DPA 4099, or even better, the 4061, which is no cheap microphone.  It would, however, eliminate the room issue.  The instrument would still be the limiting factor for a good sound.  You can also adapt the microphone for use with any instrument with the adapters.  
 
An electric violin is akin to using an electronic keyboard to replace a piano.  It will never sound as good as a great instrument, but it can certainly be preferable to a bad instrument in a mix.  Just my 2 cents. 
 
Certainly each musician has their preference for strings, D'Adarrio is, of course, the standard brand which many amateur and professional musicians gravitate to.  Bows are a different story and they are probably as important as the instrument itself.  I know some violinists who spent more than ten thousand dollars on a good bow just to help improve their technique a little bit.  
2016/05/06 10:53:38
Starise
Wow lot's to chew on here. I appreciate it! 
 
I was recently looking at those mics you mentioned. This might be a decent alternative especially since I was willing to look at an entirely different instrument to get a good sound. I am starting to come over to a more purist view though when I heard that recording electronic violin is akin to recording a keyboard instead of a piano. Since the mic mentioned is still basically micing a natural sound it could be a solution. 
 
In some circles I'm told that violin price reflects violin sound but in other circles this point is argued. I have an intermediate instrument in the 1500 dollar range that the rep told me should serve me well for a long time and it sounds good when I play it correctly. It is head and shoulders above my 300.00 stentor. I didn't even try the 5000-10.000 dollar violins because I knew I wouldn't be looking at buying one for quite awhile. When I play in Irish sessions, the fiddlers there seem to be able to make what looks like a basic instrument sound very good. My objective is a nice irish "fiddle" sound whatever that is. From what I've seen so far, a good player can make a nice sound on a less expensive violin. 
 
When I bought the violin I also bought the bow. I took a blind test with my back to the player and she played with a decent higher priced pernambuco wood bow and a graphite bow. Before that I sampled 10 or so bows in different price ranges and narrowed it down to two bows.. The best of the two was the graphite bow hands down in that price range. I was told that in the lower price ranges graphite is the way to go. The wood ones are better in the higher price ranges, so my bow cost around 100.00 American. I have two graphite bows now and the wood one that came with my student model. Not sure if this is important, but I selected my last bow based on weight and sound. It weighs in at just over 5 grams which is light for a violin bow. I don't know how huge of a difference it makes compared to a very expensive bow, since my situation is what it is I'm not likely to upgrade my bow right away. I did buy very good gold pirastro rosin. My violin teacher seemed to think I had an ok setup.
 
2016/05/06 18:16:35
tlw
Now, I'm no Irish fiddler, but I do l know a lot of very good indeed English traditional fiddlers and it's a closely related style. It's been suggested that Irish, British and Applachain fiddlers are the last surviving strand of the Baroque style violin.... It's a sound like no other and has little to do with the classical romantic school violin playing of the "serious" music world.

Anyway, as far as I can work out the key to the sound is mostly in the bowing technique rather than the strings, quality of bow or even quality of fiddle. Some make superb music on surprisingly inexpensive instruments, bows ranging from custom made Baroque style short bows with a reverse curve to fiberglass cheap ones, strings from Dominants to cheap Dogal steel. All work for someone.

You definitely need the squeak (or "grunge") of a heavy bow attack to come through, the short bow strokes and attack are what gives the music lift and life, and without it everything smooths out and gets too "nice" if you see what I mean.
2016/05/09 09:53:30
Starise
Thanks tlw. The Dominants definitely made a difference. Even though they're synthetics they feel better on string crossings and have a more lively tone. They're still settling in, if they stay similar to what I have now I'll be happy.
 
 I'm feeling more and more like I didn't throw bad money at my setup. This is nice to know since this fiddle is my partner for years to come.
 
I had no idea there were so many styles of fiddle playing. It's been said that the irish styles use more of the left hand while Scottish styles are more to do with the bow. I love Irish fiddle ornamentation. The "cuts" are beautifully done and I love the scale modes used. I recently went to see and spoke with one of the best Irish fiddlers in the world. Kevin Burke. If you like this kind of music you'll like Kevin's music.He's an expert in the style of County Sligo. 
 
I checked out the dpa mics Daniel mentioned and I think this is exactly what I need. Expensive yes, but I want nice recordings. This is the very mic used by the little dancing fairy in the Celtic Woman concerts. It's an omni, but that actually works as an advantage.
 
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