http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/660499-ultimate-converter-da-ad-loopback-shootout-thread.html

Not a whole lot of converters included in the test so far, but still interesting. My own unit (MOTU 828MkII) is included, so it's nice to see that it performs well.

It also seems to confirm my suspicion that the Black Lion mods rely more on expectation bias than actual electronic improvements to convince believers they've made a smart decision in paying hundreds of dollars for new capacitors and op amps.

I didn't go into the weeds of the details but it seems to confirm my suspections that most converters are pretty good these days.  There isn't as big of difference as many other facets of musical production, esp. when you consider most playback systems.  Most of the difference disappears in your CD players DAC when it is all said and done.  You can make good - no great - music with garden variety-priced converters.  I'll use prisms, but can't justify them until I win the lottery.

@

You are right. Even a low-end Realtek interface is better than the first-generation ADCs from the 60's. And yet, some excellent digital recordings were made back then (although most were pretty bad).

Which is not to say that converter quality is completely unimportant, only that it's way, way down on the long list of things that determine the final quality of the product.

bitflipper


You are right. Even a low-end Realtek interface is better than the first-generation ADCs from the 60's. And yet, some excellent digital recordings were made back then (although most were pretty bad).

Which is not to say that converter quality is completely unimportant, only that it's way, way down on the long list of things that determine the final quality of the product.

I gotta agree there bit...being a Realtek user for just about all my scratch ideas and even client rough tracks. When I bring a project done on my net box using the Realtek onto my good gear, there's really no difference that I can tell that blows me away. As a matter of fact...and this is weird...you may be able to explain this better than me.
 
But I did a project for a client that was in need of some heavy guitars for a country crossover type tune. They wanted it modern sounding...kinda like that tune "She's Country" if you've ever heard that? We were going for low tuned guitars with some kick. Well, I was testing the waters as to what I would present to this guy and proceeded to log my ideas on my net box at home using the Realtek at 16/44. I sent the dude the tracks just so he could hear if he liked where I was going or not and he absolutely loved them just as they were.
 
The more I listened to them, the more I found things within these tracks that I didn't seem to get using my RME FF 800 or my Layla 24/96. I found this as odd as the chain I use to get into my net box is similar to the one I use to get into my main recording pc's. But for some reason, there was something about the guitar tones that just seemed different. So the lab rat I am, I had to try and re-record these guitars using the good stuff at 24/48. Would you believe the sound wasn't as good?
 
What I found out...which coul be just a fluke...or maybe it's just reality and I need to accept it...but anything I record on the Realtek that is speaker sim at 16/44, sounds better than speaker sim on my good gear at 24/48. Something to do with how the Realtek converters do their thing? I have no idea...but something just sounded better to me in all the tests I did. Now, what I should have done that I didn't do...was record on the good gear using the good cards at 16/44 to compare the bit and sample rates. I'm wondering if that's what played a role in this. That's a test I've yet to do. But I just found it odd that there was enough of a difference that made me scratch my head. This happened one other time. Tommy Lee from Motley Crew had this little contest where you could do whatever you wanted to his tunes. He posted everything up in stems and just let people go at them.
 
I did a few things just as tests on the net box again using the Realtek just to get my ideas down. When I brought the projects with me to my studio and recorded the real guitars...that Realtek had that certain something again that just made me scratch my head. Now, what I DID find out is...if I record with a mic or two on my rig, the Realtek falls way short...but for speaker sim/direct sounds...it's almost better for me to record through it at 16/44 because it does make the guitars sound totally sweet.
 
There have also been a number of pre-amp tests that I've listened to over the years. Either the people doing them aren't doing them correctly....or we just need to accept that though there may be slight differences, most times is doesn't justify thousands of dollars more to gain that *maybe* 3% difference....or less, in my opinion. I definitely think some of this stuff is mind-over matter as well as some hype getting the best of us at times. I even thought I was probably hearing things with the Realtek...but, each time I play a version of something done with it vs. the same project on my other stuff using speaker sim...I start scratching my head again because I definitely hear something that I like better. What it is...I can't even describe...but it leaps out to me each time without even thinking about it even when I just let a CD play in my car. I usually have stuff like that play back to back...darn Realtek always makes me hit "repeat". LOL!
 
-Danny

Here's an example of why I dig these forums... Great discussions on technical subjects, knowledge w/o all the elitism.

I recently saw a newbie ask for audio interface recommendations on another forum I visit. He mentioned M-Audio but was advised to avoid them due to their poor quality converters and told to get an Apogee instead. In fact, those fellows are pretty much swearing by Apogee.

One of the guys even mentioned that the difference was so obvious that he heard the difference even when listening to MP3s, which sounded much more "open".

I vote for a blind taste-test, like a Coke/Pepsi thing.

Danny - can you post your tests?  I'd like to see if I can (1) determine which you used and (2) hear a difference.

One of the guys even mentioned that the difference was so obvious that he heard the difference even when listening to MP3s, which sounded much more "open".

Placebo effect.

Listeners can identify equipment with 100% accuracy only as long as the brand name is clearly visible. In a blind test, maybe 1 person in 100 could reliably distinguish an Apogee from an M-Audio interface, and even then it would likely be program-dependent and/or due to flaws in the test.

Where you are most likely to distinguish interfaces is in their analog components. Danny talks about a guitar sounding better through a Realtek than his "good" interfaces. This may be due to distortion and compression in the analog portion of the interface. The Realtek does not have as much headroom, has higher distortion, noise and channel crosstalk, and poorer transient response. Such shortcomings do not necessarily make audio sound bad, just a little different.

That's why I added the caveat about program dependency above. If you wanted to demonstrate the superiority of a Prism over a Realtek, it would be easy: you'd only have to choose test audio that emphasized the Realtek's limitations. You'd have a much harder time demonstrating audible differences between Apogee and M-Audio, or M-Audio versus Roland, or MOTU versus RME.

RabbitSeason


I vote for a blind taste-test, like a Coke/Pepsi thing.

Danny - can you post your tests?  I'd like to see if I can (1) determine which you used and (2) hear a difference.

Unfortunately, I don't have any of the actual A/B comparissons...I just have stuff that I know I did using the Realtek. I'll have to see if I have some time to do a few tests...but how about this for starters....
 
Here are the original submissions I sent to Tommy Lee. The mixes are heavy volume wise with the instruments I performed because I wanted them to stick out. There are 4 songs. 3 of them were done using all my good gear at 24/48, one was done using the Realtek at 16/44. I'll give you one hint...one (to me at least) seems to sound a little more analog. Can you pick it out?
 
http://www.dannydanzi.com/Media/TommyLeeProject.zip
 
I also have a clarification to make. One of our members on this forum pm'd me to give me his take on the Realtek and why I may notice a difference. When I posted "sims" in my original post, I meant to actually say "speaker sims". For most of my recordings, I use a Digitech 2101 tube pre-amp and I either mic it through my cab, or use the XLR out speaker sim that comes with it. I then do a few tricks to it to make it sound more mic'd if I go the XLR route using impulse rooms and compression etc....but I didn't use any sims on any of these songs other than "speaker sim" and it didn't come by way of impulse speaker sim. This is where I notice the Realtek doing it's dirty lil analog thing to the material in a good way. Not that the high end stuff sounds bad...there's just a...nevermind, I won't tell you what I hear that makes it stick out. LOL! But all these sounds were recorded the exact same way...same guitar, same guitar pre-amp, same console going to disc...the only difference is 1 song is Realtek at 16/44, the others are Layla at 24/48. :)
 
-Danny

I haven't had time enough to compare yet - but the guitar tones you developed are fantastic in all the tracks. 

 I almost bought an old MOTU 828MK and intended to get the Black Lion upgrade. I had a MOTU Traveler and it was ok but not upgradable. I'm glad I eventually settled on a Presonus Firestudio with jitter reduction technology developed by TC electronic.

  The differences between bit rates and op amps are well.....different. Danny isn't the first  I have heard say that 16bit was as good as 24 bit to his ears(or at least sounded better on certain material). I really can't tell a lot of difference there either,depending on the material recorded. I usually use 24/44 as my default recording just in case more resolution is needed.

 Maybe it is splitting hairs over almost nothing but I have a slightly different opinion on op amps and their quality. If all op amps are the same or very similar in performance, then Apogee and RME have no real advantage over a less expensive  interface. If this is true then we are all wasting our money on something reported to be better if we buy high end interfaces.

 Mathlematical equations have never been one of my strongest points but even with my limited knowledge at the engineering end of op amp technology, I understand digital jitter and harmonic distortion. The better more expensive gear is generally proven to be better gear and in many cases a comparison between prosumer gear and the top notch gear shows some difference in quality and sound.

  In my experience, a lot of the tests made on gear never show you the entire picture,especially if said information might discourage you buying the gear. Noone has said there are no differences, but only that they are slight. I would argue that depending on the gear involved the differences can be large.