• Techniques
  • Export Audio causes tonal changes in mix (p.2)
2016/03/21 12:34:20
Chevy
Kalle Rantaaho
If I understand correctly, you use Ozone standalone. Is everything normal if you insert it as a plugin in the  project?
 
What kind of audio settings does the standalone version have? Have you checked it uses the same interface (instead of possibly SONAR using an external interface and Ozone using the integrated sound chip) or if anything in the basic settings is different?


Yes, trying to utilize Ozone 7 Standalone, and getting the treble and volume boost. 
If I use Ozone 7 as a plugin in my Sonar project, just as a quick A/B test with the plugin turned on and off in Sonar, yes , it seems to be ok. There is just a slight increase in volume and brightness, but nothing you couldn't quickly correct with an EQ or something. 
 
Yes, good point.... I went to the Audio Devices, and found out Ozone was set at Default Output Device, changed it to Scarlett ASIO, and it made no difference.  There are 4 options available here:  Default Output Device, Line Out (Scarlett 2i2 USB), Speakers (High Definition Audio), and Scarlett ASIO.  I didn't try the remaining 2.  Sonar is set for the ASIO option. 
2016/03/21 16:59:22
Chevy
Further to all this...   I have a friend with a rather elaborate and decent (by my standards) studio in the works. just talked with him today about my concerns...  He'd been using Sonar for several years, but has switched, a while back, to Pro Tools.  He tells me he had the same issue with Ozone 7 standalone and Sonar.....  a master 2 track would sound different in Sonar than it would in Ozone standalone. Had to be remixed. He said the Pro Tools doesn't do that...  what you hear in Pro Tools, you also hear in Ozone 7. He said Sonar sounds muddy in comparison to Pro Tools, Pro Tools being much clearer.
So....   this is all news to me, but if he's right, it definitely means that all DAWs don't sound alike.  Anyone compare Sonar to Reaper ?  To Harrison Mix Bus?  To Pro Tools ?
 
 
2016/03/22 03:47:00
Kalle Rantaaho
I don't believe for a second that you could tell the DAWs from eachother by the raw sound.
That Ozone thing does sound mysterious, though.
2016/03/22 08:36:30
dcumpian
If a DAW outputs audio, with the same plugins and settings, and it sounds different when doing exactly the same thing in another DAW, one of them is broken. It's all math at this point.
 
FWIW, I can't tell any difference between audio exported from Sonar or Reaper.
 
Dan
2016/03/22 10:50:21
bitflipper
Chevy
Further to all this...   I have a friend with a rather elaborate and decent (by my standards) studio in the works. just talked with him today about my concerns...  He'd been using Sonar for several years, but has switched, a while back, to Pro Tools.  He tells me he had the same issue with Ozone 7 standalone and Sonar.....  a master 2 track would sound different in Sonar than it would in Ozone standalone. Had to be remixed. He said the Pro Tools doesn't do that...  what you hear in Pro Tools, you also hear in Ozone 7. He said Sonar sounds muddy in comparison to Pro Tools, Pro Tools being much clearer.
So....   this is all news to me, but if he's right, it definitely means that all DAWs don't sound alike.  Anyone compare Sonar to Reaper ?  To Harrison Mix Bus?  To Pro Tools ?

Your friend is wrong. He's not alone in that misconception, though; it's a surprisingly widely-held belief that different DAWs have distinctive sounds. But they do not. They in fact all do the same thing. (ProTools HD was arguably different, being based on a sliding-window integer system rather than floating-point math. But even if that ever was an audible factor, and I'm not convinced it was, those days are behind us. Today, all DAWs arrive at the same conclusion given the same data and processing. 2 + 2 = 4 whether you ask Reaper, ProTools, Logic, SONAR or Band in a Box.
 
Think about it: if you're running a standalone application, feeding it a simple standard wave file, how could it possibly know or care about what application originally generated that file? 
 
Ozone does have a true bypass, meaning when all of its modules are disabled and faders are zeroed it does not alter the signal. I have verified that to my own satisfaction by comparing spectral graphs and amplitude statistics in Adobe Audition, as well as a blind A/B test. Although the files are not going to be bit-identical (file headers change even if the audio data doesn't), they are audibly equivalent in every measurable way.
 
 
If Ozone is altering the sound, then it's not fully bypassed and some feature has been inadvertently enabled.
2016/03/22 11:00:48
batsbrew
operator error.
 
2016/03/22 13:12:59
Chevy
Hmmm..... ok, so what am I doing wrong?   It's not rocket science as far as bypassing Ozone 7 goes;  I just hit the master bypass in the lower right corner and the main screen goes grey (and by the way, all the Ozone modules are individually bypassed as well) and it should be out of the picture, right?  
But then I import a specific 2 track into Ozone 7 standalone, and listen.  It's quite a bit brighter and also louder than the exact same 2 track imported into a fresh Sonar X3 Studio project, without any plugins. This is only my 2nd song I'm attempting to master, and it has a lot of ride cymbal which just jumps out of the mix terribly in Ozone. But not in Sonar.  
??????????????
2016/03/22 14:42:28
dwardzala
Just curious - do you happen to have your main outs Fader (not your master bus fader) in Sonar pulled down at all?  It may be brighter because its louder (Fletcher-Munson and all that.)
2016/03/22 15:48:54
John
A few DAWs do have their own sound. One that comes to mind is Mixbus.  Sonar also has its own sound when one engages Pro Channel with some of the coloring modules. Another one would be Studio One with its new Mix FX module. All the above is due entirely to deliberate coloring by specific additions to those DAWs. Normally without those modules used audio from one DAW can null with audio from another DAW if no processing is down to the audio and bit depth and sample rate are the same. Therefore it follows that Ozone will also change the sound if one has one or more modules processing the audio.  
 
 
 
However, what is being said above by the posters on this thread is also true when no coloring is employed by the DAW.  The reason you hear a difference is you have Ozone set up to process the audio it is receiving. One or more of its modules is processing the audio. Its that simple. 
 
All of this is very well understood by the vast majority of the members on the CW forums. What your friend is saying is pure nonsense. There is no added benefit in sonic quality in any DAW that is demonstrable. Basically they all sound the same if one takes away any added coloring they may employ. 
 
 
   
2016/03/22 16:50:04
tlw
Chevy  
But then I import a specific 2 track into Ozone 7 standalone, and listen.  It's quite a bit brighter and also louder than the exact same 2 track imported into a fresh Sonar X3 Studio project,


Ah. Louder as well as brighter.

What is your listening volume? Have you measured it? I ask because there may by psychoacoustics at play here.

The way our nervous system works is that at lower volumes we perceive less bass and treble, more mids. This is good because it means the most important part of the audio range is the most intelligible to us at lower volumes. It is bad because if we mix or master at too low a volume then we are not hearing the full audio range in a balanced way. This is called the Fletcher-Munson effect after a couple of people who researched it.

Make the audio louder and the Fletcher-Munson effect lessens. So we perceive more treble and maybe more bass.

There is also another psychoacoustic effect that if we're played the same track twice, but one play through 3dB louder than the other, and asked to say which we prefer we are very likely to pick the slightly louder one as best. A tendency used by unscrupulous hi-fi retailers almost as long as there's been hi-fi and also the origin of the "volume wars" in mastering.

If the output from Ozone measures higher in either peak or RMS than the output from Sonar I suggest you double-check there's no processing hapening in either, use gain addition or subtraction somewhere in the playback chain to equalise the volumes if necessary. Then turn up the monitors a bit and try comparing the results. It would be even better if it could be done as a blind test, so you don't know whether it's Sonar or Ozone you're listening to.

(Edited to add)

This can be one of the times where metering outside the DAW such as in the audio interface's mixing application can be extremely useful to check comparative levels. Ears and brain can and will be fooled, meters not so easily.
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