2016/02/10 13:43:22
patm300e
Danny hit the nail on the head.  There are plenty of drummers who can play the drums.  The ones with finesse (The Steve Gadds and Jeff Porcoros of the world) are the ones that people enjoy hearing.
 
 
2016/02/11 08:48:36
Guitarhacker
Jeff Evans
Herb if you are breaking sticks, heads and destroying cymbals or bleeding you are doing something wrong.  I have never broken a stick, head or cymbal in 46 years of playing.  End of story.
 
In terms of volume the whole band should be aiming for about 105 dB SPL which is known to be the most exciting sound pressure level.  (What a symphony orchestra can only reach in full force acoustically)  Anything over is bad and it all starts to go downhill from there.



I agree.  Yeah, the drummer, "DJ", played so hard that not only the cymbals didn't live long, neither did the heads.  He kept spare heads because he broke quite a few.

He also bought the heavy duty drum sticks and then turned them around backwards because he didn't like using the ends with the tips... they didn't "hit hard enough" for him.  In addition to that, the sticks were chewed up from where he would hit the edge of the cymbals rather than hitting them on the surface.  His attack was at about 45 degrees to the edge.... chew up a drum stick in a hurry. I saw him chew many a stick in half in a song, grab a new stick and keep playing.  
 
He also had developed a snare strike that was a smacking side stick hit.... hitting both the head and the rim at the same time for a very loud crack.  

In spite of all that, he did understand control and finesse and could play the perfect drum parts in country as well as the rock stuff we did.  He just liked playing loud and seemingly out of control better. He was energetic and was a driving force in the band.... we were a 3 piece band.
2016/02/11 11:02:10
TheMaartian
dcumpian
This drummer shows how it should be done:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5CgdTtGv8o
 
Notice he ain't banging the crap out of them.
 
Dan

Great tune to start the day! Here's their entire 2014 New Year's Eve show.
 

2016/02/11 13:51:56
Danny Danzi
Guitarhacker
 
He also had developed a snare strike that was a smacking side stick hit.... hitting both the head and the rim at the same time for a very loud crack.  



This, in my opinion, is the only way to hit a snare drum in MOST styles of music. Seriously, though at times it can be a bear to deal with live, in the studio, the one thing I absolutely HATE, is a drummer that hits like he's playing oldies when he's playing rock, metal, current country rock or even fusion. If you listen to styles of music like that in current form, every drummer rim shots and center hits at the same time. If they don't, they fly a sample in that does both of those.
 
Now for the seasoned jazz guy, dynamics are key at all times. Most, like Jeff, won't break sticks or damage heads. But the more aggressive players will most definitely have this happen. Seriously listen to the current country rock that is happening right now. No one is hitting the snare like a wuss because it just wouldn't remain in the song. Heck, listen to Stevie Ray "Crossfire"....snare on that is smashed and sounds fantastic. So though we can definitely bash on drummers that...well, bash on drums...lol....we can't deny that when done right, nothing beats a kit that is hit with meaning. It just really can take a toll on us live when you are jamming in close proximity to a guy that hits with conviction. :)
-Danny
2016/02/15 11:04:59
Voda La Void
Interesting thread.  I've tried playing at lower volume and I find I just don't "feel" the groove or the timing as well.  Granted, I'm sure I could get used to it over time, but I love the feel of hitting them hard.  
 
But that doesn't mean a loss of finesse either.  That's the part I'm not getting here.  I punch the bass and snare most of the time, for most of the music I record that is appropriate for that, but that doesn't apply to cymbals and fills.  I'm about ready to post my first song done with acoustic drums and if you listen you should hear the dynamics between the general beat and the fills.  
 
Now on taming cymbals...I saw Elton John in concert when I was a kid and I was mesmerized by the drummer and I remember being impressed how he hit his cymbals like a side-arm pitch.  I thought it looked cool and I started playing mine that way.  I never realized there was an actual functional point to what he was doing.  And now that I've got two overheads, I'm now beginning to be suspicious of the cymbal and hi-hat work being too high in the mix - the hi-hats are almost as loud as the snare.   
 
The sound is better and fuller with the overheads, but I'm afraid I'm ruining the overall mix....
2016/02/16 12:19:14
scottcmusic
Well, if we take recorded drums as the ideal ... Meaning if we are trying to recreate recorded music on a stage, then I believe a drummer should make an attempt to have his drums sound like that recording. Just like a guitar player is expected to have a comparable tone and technique to the song you are recreating live, a drummer should also acquiesce to the music at hand.
 
The first thing done in a professional recording studio after drums are recorded is the engineer usually starts applying high and low pass EQ filters on the drums to tame certain rogue frequencies in the extreme upper and lower registers. He also may considerably lower the overall levels of the cymbals in general so they don't eat up a bunch frequency space that the lead vocals will eventually need to shine through clearly. Cymbals can really cut into vocal diction if you don't watch it.
 
So a drummer that insists on bashing the hell out of his kit is really just saying, "Screw the actual tune at hand, and look at me everyone!" It's no different than a lead guitar player insisting on lugging a wall of Marshalls to club gigs and running them all on eleven!
2016/02/16 23:31:06
Danny Danzi
scottcmusic
The first thing done in a professional recording studio after drums are recorded is the engineer usually starts applying high and low pass EQ filters on the drums to tame certain rogue frequencies in the extreme upper and lower registers. He also may considerably lower the overall levels of the cymbals in general so they don't eat up a bunch frequency space that the lead vocals will eventually need to shine through clearly. Cymbals can really cut into vocal diction if you don't watch it.

 
Not to be confrontational, but I believe quite a few engineers would disagree with your first sentence. Most engineers will edit drums for timing and check for hit consistency, replacement or hybridding of sounds before we'll even touch an eq. Once that's done, then we'll worry about eq and literally mixing the kit in with the rest of the instrumentation. Not all engineers have to deal with stuff like that. But most high end clients like some of the ones I work with, demand drum editing and replacement even though they have drummers you can set your watch by.
 
As for drummers that bash their kits....one of the most annoying things you can be faced with as an engineer working with drums, is a drummer that has no conviction in his/her hits. You literally have to replace hits like that when they fall short. I see a heck of a lot more drummers playing the wimp card than those that whack the drums like they should. It doesn't sound dynamic anymore...it sounds like <insert light hitting drummer of choice> attempting to play in the wrong band. The impact you lose with light hits when something shouldn't be light, is almost demoralizing.
 
This of course is mostly in rock and metal music, but even in fusion, blues and current country rock, there are serious hits going on in poppy songs and non-ballad types. The majority of radio songs have drum consistency where there are strong or even bashed hits going on, and it's not just due to extreme compression/limiting. Depending on the style of music, a lack of a serious whack can change the entire sound of the band/song negatively.
 
scottcmusicSo a drummer that insists on bashing the hell out of his kit is really just saying, "Screw the actual tune at hand, and look at me everyone!" It's no different than a lead guitar player insisting on lugging a wall of Marshalls to club gigs and running them all on eleven!



It depends on the situation as well as the material. If you've ever played with an "arena rock" drummer, this is how they play. Heck most hard rock drummers play like that and just about all metal drummers do. So it definitely has its place. It's part of the style and they bash the majority of their music unless it's a ballad. Kinda like if we took the razor sharp sounding guitars out of punk music, it wouldn't be punk anymore. The sounds help to make the style what it is, ya know? :)
 
It's tough in a club though because everything is too loud anyway. The majority of rooms aren't set up for a live band anyway. Some are so bad acoustically, it doesn't matter how low you try to go. The sound carries and it just bounces all over. Drums are loud, no one else can hear, we all start to turn up. Then of course you get wet napkins thrown at you by the club manager. LOL! I so remember those days!!! We have such a killer soundman now, we can go low and come through our monitors or in-ears. On another note...
 
One thing I can say....most home recordists mix their cymbals way too loud. They are supposed to be treated as percussive accents, not full blown instruments that should be as loud as a vocal or guitar track. Low pass those babies and lower them to where you can hear them, but not to where they barrel over things within the mix. The only cymbals that can get away with being a bit loud are hats and ride. Even there, it's easy to allow hats to be too loud...but they are acceptable as long as they are eq'd correctly and are not hissing like a snake. :)
 
-Danny
2016/03/04 12:26:20
jackson white
Jeff Evans
... The audience and the venue will love you forever! ...  



The -BAND- will love you forever. The head stock on my bass is pretty chewed up from knocking over cymbal stands, among other things. 
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