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  • Confused about gain-staging at mixdown
2017/06/27 23:38:12
Billy86
Hi.... Thanks in advance for all the great advice on this forum... 
 
I have a song, pretty simple, six tracks of music. Think Tom Pettyish...
Single vocal
Acoustic guitar
Scarbee P-Bass vsti
Recorded acoustic mandolin
Recorded tambourine
B-3 organ vsti
 
No track is clipping when set at unity gain, though some are definitely hotter than others. I'm attenuating each track with the gain knob to knock every track down to peaking at about -10db when the faders are at unity gain [0 db]. [This is BEFORE I insert any plugins on the individual tracks; it's just the raw signal I'm attenuating to create some track headroom.]
 
So, now the master bus is in pretty good shape, peaking at about -6 db. I know to leave some headroom for mastering, for which I'm using Izotope Ozone 7.
 
Things start to heat up on the master bus when I insert an instance of Izotope's Neutron on each track, tweaked for each particular use (EQ, compression, exciter, etc.).  Things go from "heating up" on the master bus overloading/clipping when I add in FX buses I have, primarily reverb, the Abbey Road Reel ADT plugin and the Abbey Road J-37 tape deck plugin for adding an analog vibe.
 
Would appreciate hearing gain staging strategies to use after I start inserting track plugins and routing to FX buses so I don't clip at the master bus. Combined, it's all adding up and overwhelming the master bus.
 
Thank you! 
2017/06/27 23:58:03
interpolated
Check your tracks and individual bus tracks. I used this re ently the tape plug-in you mentioned. I used a minus input volume going into tape and a smidging out. Adding a touch saturation helped get rid of some digital flatness.

Although I came across the issue before it could because you're routing a track to a bus without compensating for the track volume increase

Press E and then re-enable each track until you find the culprit. The highest track in volume and most audible when you check your mix in mono should give you an indication what is going on. Good luck
2017/06/28 00:28:38
Billy86
interpolated
Check your tracks and individual bus tracks. I used this re ently the tape plug-in you mentioned. I used a minus input volume going into tape and a smidging out. Adding a touch saturation helped get rid of some digital flatness.

Although I came across the issue before it could because you're routing a track to a bus without compensating for the track volume increase

Press E and then re-enable each track until you find the culprit. The highest track in volume and most audible when you check your mix in mono should give you an indication what is going on. Good luck


Thanks for the reply.
Should the FX sends be pre- or post-fader?
2017/06/28 07:16:01
Boydie
As a starting point I would simply press and hold CTRL without anything selected (which will group all faders) and pull them all down a bit (or reduce the gain if you prefer leaving your faders near unity)

Adding send busses will increase the overall level as even with a reverb bus you are getting additional signal by splitting (sending) some signal and then combining it again on the master bus

With compressors and tape plugins you need to be careful with input and output gain on the plugin itself - most will have an method to adjust both - if not you can use an empty FX chain in the Pro-Channel to adjust gain before and after plugins

Be especially careful with compressors and tape saturations to ensure that you don't fall in to the "it sounds louder so it must be better" trap

A good trick is to adjust your input and output gain levels on the plugin so that they are the same volume when bypassed- allowing you to truly hear what the plugin is doing - you can then decide if you want to push things a little
2017/06/28 07:20:10
Boydie
Pre or Post fader is a decision more related to the type or effect and contro, you want rather than gain staging- the send level control is your best bet for gain staging

If you set the send PRE fader then your "mix" (send level) of effect stays constant so you get the same level in the effect regardless of the dry level of the original track or bus

If you set the send POST fader then the send level will change if the fader moves, which can be desirable in some circumstances

I would personally recommend you stick with PRE fader and use the send level to control the send/effects - until you find a situation where you want to try something different
2017/06/28 09:45:11
Bristol_Jonesey
Some very good points there Boydie but I personally would recommend that the OP sticks to POST fader for his Fx Sends to avoid the potential for confusion that could arise.
2017/06/28 10:29:10
Boydie
Actually, yes - I think you are right that sticking to POST fader may be the more straight forward way to go
 
My thinking was that changing to PRE would provide some separation with the fader not affecting the reverb in any way so they could be thought of separately
 
However, I can see how this could have the potential for confusion if the fader level was dropped drastically but you would still hear lots of reverb - because the reverb level is only affected by the SEND level and not the fader as it is sent before (PRE) the fader
 
Leaving it as POST would reduce the reverb amount along with the fader level being dropped - ie the SEND level would be reduced by the fader being reduced as the send is after (POST) the fader - as well as the potential to control the send level using the send level as well
 
A good example of when to use a PRE & POST send is if you wanted to have just the reverb wet signal and no dry signal for a "reverb throw"
 
If you set the send PRE fader and then automate the fader going down the reverb amount will remain constant (controlled by the SEND level) but the dry signal will reduce
 
If you tried the same thing POST fader then the amount of signal getting sent to the reverb would reduce as the fader went down
2017/06/28 11:17:30
dwardzala
What I like to do is set the gain on my tracks my so that my signal is peaking at about -16 (the little white number next to the meter in track view or under the meter in console view).  That leaves plenty of room for effects and things like that.
 
Also, be aware that some effects not only process your track but also add volume.  Use their output controls to bring the volume back down (unless you want it raised.)  This is a good way to compare whether your effect is really making your track sound better and not just louder (which do to psycho-acoustics makes it seemingly sound better.)
2017/06/28 14:23:37
AT
Faders are the easiest means of changing volume, which is your problem it seems.  Don't zero them out w/ gain before you start mixing.  Wait until there is a problem w/ volume and fader position. 
 
Analog consoles had a gain input to help compensate for the throw of faders, which is most precise per dB when around the 0 setting.  Once you had a fader level set, you could fine tune it by using gain to get fader close to 0.  If you needed a change after that you could use small fader for small increments, rather than the slightest fader movements giving 5 db swings.
 
Think of the gain as an emergency tool for signals too loud or soft, not as a common vol control.  I seldom touch mine.
2017/06/28 16:23:31
chuckebaby
I've avoided this thread because I know the only way I can explain it is with a deep in-depth comment.
Which could leave us reading for hours. I will do my best to make long story shorter.
 
Disclaimer: everyone does this different but all are trying to achieve the same result.
After my project is complete, I remove any FX that may have been used during the recording process (Not VST-I's)
I then Zero out everything and then select/None. I hold CNTL to quick group all faders and bring the whole mix down until my Master bus is within reason (not overloading).
 
Here comes the tricky part. The balancing act.
I personally, start with drums, I solo my drums and begin to find a good sound. I then move on to Bass/ Bass synths and do the same but also trying to balance the Bass with the Drums (I use VU meters but this is another chapter)
I place FX in as I go but first establish a base mix with all instruments. If a compressor or some other VST is blowing up my MB, I changing the values to be within reason, however compressors are know to give some boost to the signal, this is where everything needs to be turned down See previous: I hold CNTL to quick group all faders and bring the whole mix down until my Master bus is within reason (not overloading).
 
I adjust all tracks many times within a mix. its just the nature of the beast. I seldom use the tracks Gain knob unless something is acting strange and overloading/not loud enough in the track strip (A funky VST that needs more boost to its input) Its a balancing act man. just make sure to stand in the middle of the see saw.
 
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