It is rare I read an entire thread... I feel like I am on another planet.

Such attacks on us drummers... horrible... all of you. ;)

Paradoodles?

I guess I should expect as much after the opening posters question... It's like a T-ball game.

I almost want to record myself against a click to show you all...

Leme just level this stage first... hmm... yeah... that's about right...

ORIGINAL: Envoy

ORIGINAL: Phrauge
I was with you right up to there.

Mind you, I'm not saying they (we) are genetically superior either!

Having been a drummer for many years, being referred to as "genetically inferior" would be one of the kindest descriptions I’ve ever heard.

ORIGINAL: Envoy

ORIGINAL: Ogis
Well, yes, if you can hear it, of course. Hence my post of a visual metradone....

Ouch! C'mon!! Just because I'm playing a percussive sound doesn't mean I can't hear another sound. In fact, working with students as well, you teach them to play with click until the click seems to "disappear", because they are hitting directly on click. And as they become even better listeners, and can control their own tempo and inner pulse, they can start to move their notes a little bit either way, and can start to hear the click peeking out from either ahead of, or behind, the note they play.

This is all pretty fundamental to studio drumming skills. It gets more dicey with classical percussionists, who sometimes don't tend to think of time in the same way as pop or commercial, but that is another story.

Sorry, I'm sure this has gotten way OT for the Sonar forum!

Envoy

Hey, my point only being my personal experance. Maybe I cant hear the click cuz I'm so good :P (hehe).. But truth is, however you look at it, the best thing for a drumer in a studio laying down an album is their own feel. A band that is recording their own song, has practiced that song a million times before they pay for studio time. IMO he soundn't need a damn thing, yet if he does, give him a visual metradone. Yet yes I agree, if I was a drumn instructor, I'd give him a click to follow. Yet, in real world studio time, I just dont find that practical. they are tring to lay something down, not learn a lesson. I know that sounds rude, yet I really dont mean it that way. Thing is, as I said, a dumer will have better feel with headphones, and a visual metradone, than some click, any day.

Ogis,

I'm not saying every recording situation is a good place to use a clicktrack, or that there aren't plenty of occasions where the feel is more important than strict tempo. But if you think about it, a visual metronome (why do you insist on the "metradone" deal?) is No Different from a click as far as feel is concerned - a click or an LED flash (or some other visual device): they all simply indicate a regular pulse. And how would a person read a chart when looking at a visual?

The original premise still stands: no reason *any* musician can't play with a click, it just takes practice and awareness.

Envoy

Hi Envoy-

And how would a person read a chart when looking at a visual?

I'm late to this thread and I haven't read the whole thing, but studio and orchestral musicians are expected to do exactly that. They read a chart or score while "following the leader". A well-trained musician can do both and play the "right" notes at the same time. It's pretty amazing, when you think about it!

-Susan

Susan,

Good point, and since I make the bulk of my living by playing in a symphony orchestra I'm no stranger to that! However, the difference is that while one would have click running in phones the entire track while reading, one could hardly stare at a visual metronome in the same fashion. The other main point is that while we look at the conductor (if for no other reason than to validate his/her existence), we aren't sitting and watching every beat to keep locked - that's what the ears are for. Conductors serve more of a purpose for tempo changes and dynamic phrasing. Besides, it is a rare day indeed where you have a conductor with a great internal clock! One of the main reasons I do non-classical playing is to get out of the tempo mud and sit in the middle of a great groove...

Envoy

As a rock/metal drummer. I can understand the frustration of playing to a click at first. You're accustomed to being the time keeper and not being dictated to. Heck, I could play guitar to a click no problem. But after a few days of relentless practice, playing drums to a click became very natural.

Some important things to remember:
If you don't have a good set of isolation headphones in studio, then that needs to be resolved ASAP.

If a drummer has a difficult time following a 1/4 click, try a 1/8 click.

If you have ever mixed a project that was recorded with a click, you will never ever want to do it without a click again. It makes mixing so much easier.

Have the guitars and bass record scratch tracks to a click. Pay close attention, because these yahoos tend to think they have perfect time but many don't. It is imperative that they have great meter on the scratch tracks.

Drummers, use the click as reference. Don't let it dictate feel. Don't be afraid to be a little in front or behind the beat.

But certainly playing percussion is different than playing a kit. Percussion is usually dependent upon someone else for tempo. Bass, snare, hihat or ride, and it's the drummer setting the tempo. Surrendering that control to a machine is an adjustment. Can it be made? Sure. I recall reading that Metallica, at least on their earlier albums (and probably subsequent) played along with drum machine programming of all the drum parts. Lars would program them all, then play along exactly as he programmed them. I think the important thing for the original poster is to be sure that the drummer has practiced the music using a click. A studio is the wrong place to first play along with a click. The drummer has likely already developed an idea for how the song should feel, including tempo, pacing, etc.

I prefer a non-musical beep beep beep beep. It's audible. Natural sounds are more difficult for me to hear because they blend in too much. The click needs to be loud enough too. That can make a big difference too.

Playing with a click is a skill, just like reading music. It doesn't necessarily mean a good or bad musician. However many top musicians would argue that a true craftsman should be able to play comfortably with a metronome.

BTW, a quarter note click is absolutely a benchmark reference for playing with a click, so I disagree with Clydewinder on that.

If any of you are pianists and have any Chopin piano books, Schirmer editions, there's a very enlightening profile of Chopin the teacher, and how he insisted that his students play in perfect time with a metronome. This coming from a composer who wrote so much piano music that would be judged upon listening to be anything but metronomic.

Drums-wise, I agree that a drummer must be able to play as perfectly as possible with a click, and then inject an acceptable "feel" or "groove" to the performance.

ORIGINAL: newbie1000

Why is it very easy to play guitar or bass to a clicktrack, but very difficult to play drums to a click??

Because, as a general rule, drummers refuse to practice.