• Techniques
  • Variances in amp sims system to system. (p.2)
2016/01/01 09:29:21
Guitarhacker
OK... so allow me to update you on what I did yesterday.  I think I might have to change my "Anti-amp-sim" position after my work last night in the studio here.
 
Family went to Raleigh, and I had a few hours and all my chores and misc stuff was done so I fired up the DAW and did a one pass take of an acoustic track I was needing to do for someone, which I had almost forgot.
 
With that obligation out of the way and the track uploading to dropbox..... I figured I would mess around with an amp sim and see if I could get it to sound good.
 
So.... I fired up Sonar and loaded Acme Bar-gig Shred and  then the one from IK (I forget the name) and messed around a bit. IK had most of the stuff locked. I think I need to register it.
 
So I opened Guitar Rig Pro 4 from NI. I had a noticeable latency thing going on playing in real time so I opened Sonar preferences and adjusted the audio latency to 5ms..... presto!  Latency gone.  OK get to work and see if we can get a reasonable tone out of this thing now. 
 
Long story short, yes.... I did in fact get a few of the guitar models to sound good. And as Danny pointed out above, the cabinet selection plays a big role in the sound quality. I also tweeked a number of the presets offered and saved them with my own custom names.  In short, I was able to dial in a few really nice sounding amp/cab settings.  Not only did I play with them solo so I could hear the details of the sound quality in all it's glory with nuances, but I also set up some backing tracks to jam over and that sounded really nice as well.
 
My signal path: Fender Tele modern into the POD2 with the POD simply set to it's clean preamp model with low levels on the volume and gain so as  NOT to effect the sound going to the interface input.
 
Yep... I liked the results quite a bit. The models sounded good and had great tone. I did twist the knobs a bit.... mostly cutting the bass down , the mids down, and the highs up a bit...plus adding presence and "air" and switching out the cabinets available in each of the models.
 
So..... I stand corrected after many years of being against using sims..... I think I have found another option for my guitar tone.  Perhaps in the past, I have been in a hurry and was looking at the metal shred amps.... because yeah, those..... I tried a few and still didn't like those.   Fender, Tweed, Plexi, Orange, Marshall, all set properly lend a nice tone.
 
I'm not in love with them... yet.... but I have no doubt as I experiment, I will fins a few that are absolutely gorgeous.

So... in closing... play around and twist the knobs. I found my tone in the cleaner models with anywhere from a hint of distortion and grit to full on Carlos style singing distortion.
2016/01/01 09:59:47
mettelus
Yeah, until you try it you need an open mind. I never gave Craig's amps a try until I was in a hurry one day... guitar straight into the interface and put one in the FX bin. Much more versatile than I expected and simple layout like a true amp.

My current issue with sims is the unnecessary complexity of them. Simple and effective is highly preferred.
2016/01/01 14:59:36
Guitarhacker
mettelus
My current issue with sims is the unnecessary complexity of them. Simple and effective is highly preferred.



That was always an issue for me too. Many sims give you 500 options and variations.... I like the hardware amps where you plug in flip a switch and crank a few knobs and you're off to good tone. Mesa makes that so easy.... and the POD is similar..... but now.... I have to take some time to set up a few presets in the sims so I can do similar things with a software amp.
2016/01/01 18:30:29
ohgrant
I would have to say the difference between his results and yours has more to do with pickup configuration than his tweaking. I have Bias desktop and a Telecaster and I can say, that is a pretty accurate representation of what a single coil guitar sounds with the blues presets without much tweaking. With my PRS with humbuckers, a Duncan Demon in bridge, totally different. Muddy and painfully bright . 
 
 
 
2016/01/01 21:12:27
maximumpower
I don't have a Stratocaster. My Carvins are both humbuckers with the ability to split. The bridge of my CT, which is all I have been using with Bias Amp, is a brighter bridge pickup. So that does contribute some to the brightness. But reducing the cuttoff of the LP filter makes it sound muffled. 
 
@Danny, instead of trying to tweak the EQ first, I started with the cab. I think I can get a good tone minus some weird frequency stuff going on in the upper mids/treble. I tried the trick with sweeping a peak filter to pinpoint the harshness and then cut. It helps a little.
 
A long time ago, I had a Digitech rack tube multi-effects preamp. I forget the name of it. It had a patch that had every other band in the EQ boosted and the others cut. It was called "nails", I think. This is what this sim sounds like with the blues patch. 
 
I will record some samples and post what I am hearing.
 
I have to tweak, leave it alone and come back. I get tunnel hearing. You know, like tunnel vision but with the ear lol
 
Thanks everyone for the help!
2016/01/01 21:55:22
BenMMusTech
Amp sims get a lot of hate in my opinion, it's because they're not well understood and not set up properly in the first place.  Gain structure is the most important setting to get right, for me I either use a compressor before the amp sim, or the tube leveller pro channel effect.  Another option is a cheap tube pre-amp on the way into the box.  Then you've got to decide whether to EQ before or after sim or both.  I love Guitar Rig, although I'm still on 4, fiddle with the microphone type and the air setting, if your amp sim has this setting.  And again once inside the amp sim check your gain structure.  I also like pro channel's console emulator set to purple, which adds a bit of top end crunch, or lately I brought the Helios console EQ from Waves, and this is excellent for EQing the amp sim after you've finished setting up the sound.  What you need to do is investigate what sound your trying to emulate, then match those settings.  As an example, David Gilmour uses the Hi Watt amp, which has an equivalent in GR4, he also uses a smattering of compression before his signal goes into his amp.  From here it's not too hard to emulate his tone.
 
Ben  
2016/01/02 01:36:55
Danny Danzi
mettelus
My current issue with sims is the unnecessary complexity of them. Simple and effective is highly preferred.



I would also agree with that. However, if you have to do loads of tweaking, it's probably not the right guitar rig. This goes for real amps too. 
 
That said, the sound you are going for will dictate how complex you need to be. For example, my fractal ax fx II is a bear to master. It has options that have options that have options for those options. BUT.....you don't have to go that crazy unless you really feel the need. You can literally set the whole thing up like you would in real life. Amp, cab and done. Or amp, cab, drive box done. 
 
Keeping that in mind going back to software amp sims, they (most if them) work that same way. If you want a classic rock sound or blues sound, you shouldn't have to go ballistic when creating the core of the tone. But if you wanted more of an 80's tone, you have to process more and experiment. It all depends what you are going for as well as how good the sim is.
 
Add in that today they are giving you the options to change pre amp and power amp tubes while adjusting bias and other tone stack options, and stuff like that can make your head spin. Not everyone is interested in that sort of control, but again, it depends what tone you're going for as well as what your personal needs are.
 
Going back to my ax fx, I started with simple stuff to create my tone. Now I have patches that are really complex but they sound terrific for the stuff I play. Other times I can get away with a more simplistic approach. I agree they can drive you crazy with options, but once you learn how they tick and put in some time, you can really get some great results. I've had this same luck with the amp sims I've mentioned in previous posts. Though it sometimes sucks to get super deep with creating tones, it can really have an awesome outcome when all is said and done.
 
I've always looked at guitar tones as art. Some people paint a masterpiece with two brushes, other paint with 12. Whatever works best.....even if it drives us to the point of going mental! Lol! Hey, we're guitar players....we're supposed to be mental. 😊
 
-Danny
2016/01/02 08:16:52
Grem
Danny Danzi
 
 Hey, we're guitar players....we're supposed to be mental. 😊
 
-Danny




If nothing else, we are that!!
2016/01/02 09:28:11
codamedia
maximumpower
I have a vague memory of Craig Anderton talking about this but I can't remember where I saw it.

Craig has a few articles and videos about using amp sims..... Here are a few of my favorites.
 
http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/-seven-steps-to-amp-sim-goodness/23054
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua_Q_ccwQPo
http://www.harmonycentral.com/articles/how-to-make-amp-sims-sound-more-analog
2016/01/02 20:59:57
clintmartin
One of the best amp sims is also one of the easiest....S-Gear. There isn't a ton of amps and effects, but it delivers a good tone without alot of EQ and complicated tweaks. 15 day free trial.
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