batsbrew
Analog source
 
vs
 
digital source
 
 
the IR's are all just math, eh?
and listening thru different monitor/room setups,
is going to give you a very clinical, scientific look at what is going on...
 
 
on the other hand,
capturing a really rich sounding amp/cab setup with a mic, 
in a really good room,
is going to provide a 3 dimensional effect that is extremely difficult to match with just math.
 
the Kemper profiler, and the Axe FX II is the closest i've heard to getting to that 'unobtanium'...
 
but what i know, is that the 'source' sound, is more important than the IR,
and the pros that use them, know this.
 
i haven't heard the desktop bias,
sounds very intriguing...
 
but you'll notice that in all the 'comparison' videos,
the guys are using the same monitoring system for playback......
and from THEIR perspective, the differences between different IR's may be really obvious,
but as soon as you move it to a more consumer grade playback system,
the SHORTCOMINGS of the IR's may become more obvious.
 
 
my personal belief?
i can't do better than a real amp, cab, and mic.
 
 

That's a pretty good way to look at it. The other thing about IR's that is important is how they are handled once inside a sim. For example, if you try some of the cheaper plugs, you either get that fizzy type of sound or they try to simulate reverb of sorts within the cab IR in hopes to make it more real. This is where a lot of them fail. Add in a tone stack that isn't very realistic to start, and you really find yourself tweaking until you get sick.
 
You know what else I believe about sims? The dudes creating them are so young (no offense to you young, brilliant coders out there) they haven't had enough experience playing through tube amps for 20-30 years like some of us have. They *think* they are simulating tubes when in reality, they sound more transistor and synthetic.
 
The more expensive plugs give you a little more control. That's one of the things about the Kemper and the AxeFX....control. Though some of it is WAY overkill, you can literally simulate anything and even work the cab IR to control the frequencies as well as that pocket of air between a mic and cab that gives you that proper 3d sound bats is talking about.
 
As far as doing better than a real amp, cab and mic, bats? You got a killer tone doing things the way you do them so there's really no need to look elsewhere. However....I think you'd get similar results if you used an Axe Fx or something. I'd like to try and tone match one of your tones.....I bet you'd be pretty impressed lol! :) That's what I like about that thing the most so far. The ability to have all my favorite tones in one box for live or studio. But anyway...
 
My biggest issue with mics for my personal stuff is most of the time I don't have lots of time to work on my stuff and may not complete a guitar part in one sitting. So I have to break my stuff down because I have clients coming and then when I set everything up, I either get a better tone than I did before or something is missing.....even when I take pictures, write down all the settings, leave tape on the stands, on the floor....I sometimes just can't hone in on that sound that I had....or like I say, sometimes it's better than what I had. So I wind up redoing that song for consistency. I'm always close, but there's always something that I like or don't like.
 
Add in that I like my direct, simulated, tone as much as my mic'd tone and it doesn't really matter. They sound so close it's not even worth me fighting with myself. LOL! Heck man, I've even left my mic'd rig up overnight and played the next day and it STILL sounded a little different from what I did the night before. Darned gremlins! So for me, I have to finish a song completely that night or the mic'd cab thing drives me mental. Hahaha! I think using both works the best for me when I have to really get down and dirty with recording my stuff. The best of both worlds...it's a no lose situation. :)
 
-Danny

Danny Danzi
 The best of both worlds...it's a no lose situation. :)
 
-Danny

Thanks it, exactly for me.  
 
If I have the time to mic....I'm all for it.  However, I am getting a VERY usable tone out of some of the sims.  Enough so, that I am often asked what I used for my tone, the person asking, thinking that it is a real amp.  Most if not all, are guitar players.  The casual listener, doesn't have a clue.  

I believe something like this is what Danny was referring to in post #24
The ART TUBE MB (I couldn't find a LIne 6 tube preamp.)
Some people are putting these in the effects loop between the amp and cab of their modeler and reporting great results.
I may give that a spin sometime. I'm happy now, but I don't mind being happier.
(update: Just bought one at reverb.com. I'll post my findings when I get it in.)

I've got an ART TUBE Pre, Clint.  I guess in the case of Amplitube, you would put it between your guitar and sound card, as a tube DI?  That may be an interesting experiment.  

all that particular device is going to do,
is raise the noise floor,
and add some harmonic distortion.

We'll see. I bought one for $25 so I can sell it easy enough. I love experimenting with things. I'm pretty happy with what I'm getting anyway. In my case this would only be for recording direct with a modeler or amp sim. I use the DT25 tube amp when playing live. I'm not sure how it would work with a sim, as the tube would be before the preamp. With the POD you can insert it in between the preamp and modeled power amp and cab using the effects loop. I'll experiment when I get it and see if it makes a difference either way. When things settle down I may get the Fractal AX8. These retail for $1399, but there is a long line. I've seen two on ebay that sold for $2500. Now that's just stupid. You can buy a new AxeFX II MK+ for $2250.

So... a few days ago I was playing with some sims and had a pretty decent (to my ears) tone dialed in on a few of the sims so....I saved them as presets.
 
Fast forward to the present. Well a few days after saving the presets. I needed to lay down a track with some distortion guitar.....so, drop in an audio track, load the sim, pull up a preset.... and....  wait... I don't remember this thing sounding like that!!!   Twiddle the knobs, tweeze the settings..... nope..... hummmm... try a different preset..... same deal.... mess around trying to dial them in...... check the POD to see that it's on the clean preamp..... yep....  mess around for some more time...... nope.... nothing is sounding like I'm hearing it in my head.....
 
SO.......
 
Bypass the sim, switch the POD to the Blackface setting.... adjust gain and output volume..... WAAAA LAAAA... there it is.... the sound I needed.... not to clean, but not too distorted and with a clean verb behind it.
 
That's why I prefer the hardware based solutions from the POD or the Mesa with a mic.
 
I'm not giving up on the sims, because I liked the sound I was getting several days previous, but it just didn't seem to work in the context of the song I was working on.

Herb,
 
One of the things to watch for on the Sims is your input signal.  Make sure that your getting a strong signal but not clipping.  That seems to very from amp model to amp model; how strong your pickups are and adjustment to the input on your sound card.  
 
Switching guitars, with totally different pickups, can change your tone quite a bit as well.  A high out humbucker is going to drive the Sim differently than a lower output humbucker.  If you are picking up the same guitar, same input level on your sound card and using the same preset, your tone shouldn't really change much, though.
 
I have kind of figured out 3-4 amp models that I like and use most of the time.  Then I have learned to dial them in to the song I am recording.  One of the biggest issues for me is that there are SO many choices with Sims, that I could spend all day tweaking them.  Just sticking with a couple of amp models seams to make me more productive.   
 
Eventually, you kind of learn to tweak the Sim like you would an amp....though I think a real amp/hardware, is still simpler to tweak your tone out of.  
 
 

michaelhanson
Herb,
 
One of the things to watch for on the Sims is your input signal.  Make sure that your getting a strong signal but not clipping.  That seems to very from amp model to amp model; how strong your pickups are and adjustment to the input on your sound card.  
 

That there is the key. For example, when you plug into an amp or even a hardware guitar pre, the input is buffered...meaning pushed a little. This changes the game dramatically and where *most* of the problems come from. There is no way to do this with a sim unless there is hardware that literally pushes the input stage of the sound.
 
The other thing to consider.....being in the guitar plug side for many years with a few companies, there are more bad guitar sims than good ones. They are so easy to make, a homeless dude that knows some code can whip up a plug, throw out a few ads that get seen by the right people, and the next thing you know, he sells 50,000 copies for $25 and he's not homeless anymore. How can you not try something with a good ad that's $25? Heck, drop that to $19.95 and that 50,000 copies thing may have just went up to 250,000....times $19.95.
 
So the quality you are getting is quite bad in some of these. Now, I seem to mention this about two times per year....so I'll mention it for the first time here again for the new people that may have joined us. Because most guitar sim programs do not give you a buffered signal going in before it even hits the plug tone stack, they are going to fall short. Let's assume that the plug we are working with today is a good one like say, Guitar Rig.
 
The first thing I do when I work with ANY plug, is to put something first in my signal chain that boosts the signal a little. Let me tell you what this fixes....
 
The first thing before we even go here though....you need a nice DI signal. Whether you go into a console or have some sort of pre or whatever into a DI or whatever you use, it has to be a good, strong, clean signal if at all possible. We can dirty it up later...but we have to start with the good stuff in the front end.
 
Keep in mind, this can be a POD set for DI with all the settings bypassed, another guitar pre-amp where you can bypass the entire unit as long as it has DI capability, dedicated Direct Boxes (which is what "DI" stands for) your interface.....whatever can get you a good signal going into the computer. Ok....moving on...
 
Ever notice these guitar sims have loads of gain, but very little sustain? Those that don't know the difference.....sustain is what allows your notes to hold out longer. This helps you to play using legato techniques as well as making for a smoother playing experience. In a hardware device, upping the gain gives you more sustain just about always. Not so for the sim plugs. You can crank the heck out of the gain and get a killer sound...but it will die out in 2 seconds.
 
The fix for this is of course a buffered input...which we don't have, so we have to sort of make one. I like to use compressors or a drive stomp box because of a few reasons. I'll explain...
 
Compression at this stage of the gain gives us a conditioned signal going into the computer/interface/sim plug. The good thing about this is, you can really get some nice sustain effects from this....but you HAVE TO have the right compressor to do this, and you'll of course need to know how to use it. Once you get the compression setting right, you open up the output a little on the compressor.
 
When you add in the sim plug and set your amount of distortion, you'll most likely start to hear some hiss unless the plug has a good gate. Even there, if you ever use a gate to the point of where it chokes off your sound and the sound dies off too fast, you are using too much gain and too much gate. It shouldn't work that way. But anyway, at this point...if the noise is hot, you back the compressor output down until the noise goes away. This along with the gain int he plug should get you some really good results as long as the plug is a good representation of what guitar tone really is.
 
Next, a simple drive stomp box. I say drive because we don't want loads of gain here. A drive/overdrive or even a Tube Screamer or Boss Compressor Sustainer can give awesome results here. The key is to not use any of the gain on the pedal at first and jack up the output knob. Same thing as the other example....lower it as soon as you get hiss. Now if you happen to need a little gain boost, you CAN turn the gain on the pedal up a little...but I've never had to do this. The output has been enough for me while using the Boss I mentioned and a Tube Screamer. (not at the same time of course lol)
 
I also recommend having any tone knobs on the pedals set for up the middle at 12 o'clock for starters. If you happen to need any of that coloration you can add it or take it away....but start up the middle.
 
You can also use tube pre-amps or any other signal boosting device. There's no way to determine what will work or what won't until you try a few things. For me so far....these are all the things I've tried to where I've been successful with good sounding plug sims.
 
Compressors: Hardware, pedals, comps built into pre-amps like a POD where everything on the POD was bypassed other than the compressor, and I've even used my 2101 (it has lo-Z outs and works as a great DI with everything bypassed) with a little compression that was in a patch while bypassing everything else.
 
Pedals: Ibanez Tube Screamer, Boss Compressor Sustainer, Boss Over-drive, Distortion (this one was a bit edgy but it worked), and a Turbo Overdrive.
 
Consoles: I've even pushed my console pre-amps a bit while using effects in-line while going into the computer with great results. My current Midas M-32 has an awesome front end that gives me some really great stuff for pre-sim processing.
 
So in my personal opinion, we always need a little something to make these things sound closer to a real guitar sound. It's also been my experience that the only cheap plug that has ever given me a good sound was the Acme Bar Gig stuff. I honestly don't say that because I worked for them....they really did give me a killer plug for free with the first versions of Shred. Other than that, the name brand stuff has been the best for me when I've had to use sims. Hope some of this helps. :)
 
-Danny

Good read there Danny.
 
I will continue to experiment with the sim.  I have Guitar Rig and the POD2 which has a clean preamp and a compressor...so I shall use the compressor and continue my journey to enlightenment in the Zen of sims.