• SONAR
  • Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys?
2018/10/07 21:41:08
michael diemer
Maybe this has been requested before (I would be surprised if it hasn't): Why are there only major key options listed in Meter/Key View? Music has both major and minor keys. Furthermore, there is a "relative minor" key for every major key. For example, C major has A minor as its relative minor. All the other major keys have a relative minor key associated with them, with the same key signature. Sure, I can consult the chart I made to find the correct major key associated with a minor key, and choose that key signature, but a professional DAW with so many great features should have this by default. 
 
It's an easy addition. All you have to do is something like this:
 
1 #: G Major/E Minor. 
2#:  D Major/B Minor
And so on.
 
Thanks, Mike 
 
Ooops, sorry, I intended to post this in feature requests, not sure what happened. Please feel free to move it.
 
 Edit: I just reposted this in Feature Requests, this post can be deleted. Thanks.
2018/10/08 19:53:05
The Maillard Reaction
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2018/10/08 21:16:52
Bristol_Jonesey
I have to agree.
 
Any experienced composer should be able to just look at the score and determine from the sharps & flats in conjunction with the key signature to instinctively know if you're in, for example,  C Major or A Minor.
2018/10/08 21:25:10
msmcleod
Bristol_Jonesey
I have to agree.
 
Any experienced composer should be able to just look at the score and determine from the sharps & flats in conjunction with the key signature to instinctively know if you're in, for example,  C Major or A Minor.


Whilst this is true, it's not an unreasonable request.
 
Changing Eb (3 flats)  to Eb / Cm (3 flats) isn't a big ask.
2018/10/09 03:29:49
michael diemer
Bristol_Jonesey
I have to agree.
 
Any experienced composer should be able to just look at the score and determine from the sharps & flats in conjunction with the key signature to instinctively know if you're in, for example,  C Major or A Minor.


It's not that I don't know what the key sig is. Of course I do, I'm writing the piece. It's that I want to easily make the correct changes in key sig at the appropriate time. I think you misunderstood my point. 
2018/10/09 03:39:32
michael diemer
Bash von Gitfiddle
The "relative" minor key you refer to is also know as the Aeolian mode which is one of the modes of the Ionian Scale.
 
There are 5 other "relative modes", all of which have powerful uses but share a key signature. 
 
So, where will your list stop? Will each of the twelve Ionian Scale listings be accompanied by all seven well known modes for a total of 84 choices as related to the 12 actual key signatures?
 
How about the rest of the *non-western* world and the other hundred or so scales out there being used by musicians? Some of the so called "exotic" scales do, and some do not, have key signatures.
 
Furthermore, the snap to scale tools in Piano Roll View can be handy without regard for the signature if the list of scales is comprehensive enough to recognize the variety of subdivisions that exist.
 
 


Interesting response. No, it doesn't make sense to expect that all the modes be represented, let alone non-Western scales and such. But being able to quickly insert the correct major and minor key sigs would seem to be the bare minimum, and would account for the vast majority of situations.
 
Of course none of this matters to those who don't need key sigs. But for those are doing orchestral stuff, it makes it easier to export the piece to notation software, because the key sigs will be correct when imported. And, as was pointed out above, it should be very easy to do as it just involves adding some text.
 
I wish I just knew all the key sigs by heart, but I'm self-taught, and never bothered to memorize them. Actually, I can derive them on demand using the circle of fifths, but why do that when you can just look at a chart? And why do that, when your software has the info already there for you?
2018/10/09 12:22:37
The Maillard Reaction
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2018/10/09 13:32:49
msmcleod
Bash von Gitfiddle
"...it doesn't make sense to expect that all the modes be represented."  This is an interesting statement.
 
C Ionian (a.k.a. major), D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian (a.k.a. natural or relative minor) and B Locrian all are designated with the very same key signature.
 
There are of course, 11 other similar lists ( Maybe more if you decide to label all the enharmonic equivalents )
 
These modes have been used by numerous classical "composers"; Debussy, List, Beethoven, Chopin, Sibelius, and Korsakov to name a few.
 
These modes can be heard throughout the history of "western" classical music, and feature prominently in many of the cornerstones of the foundation that "western" classical music has been built upon.
 
Yet, it has been suggested that since it seems inconvenient to know about, but not commit to memory, the relationship between the Ionian and Aeolian modes, a special handy aide should be introduced to promote time savings while preparing a score that features these two particular modes. What happens to all the other modes? Will they be deprecated for use by the few who are willing to refer to a chart, or the circle of fifths, or perhaps even their memory.
 
 




The menu item is Meter/Key, not Meter/Mode or Meter/Scale
 
The fact that it specifies the number of sharps or flats in the description, makes it just as suitable for modes.
 
Keys refer to major/minor.
Modes refer to Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian.
 
Keys and Modes are two different things, just like chords and scales are two different things.
 
2018/10/09 20:16:55
michael diemer
Part of the reason I requested this is that it could be helpful for folks who don't have any knowledge at all about the subject. I can always look it up or even figure it out in my head, so for me it's just a convenience. but for a lot of folks it would be even more helpful. 
 
The key a song is in is pretty easy to figure. It's almost always the starting chord and ending chord, and the one it keeps coming back to. It's neat to know that if your song is in the key of E, it has a relative minor of c#. If you are writing a song in E minor, the key sig would be the one for G major (one sharp). So you just go to the menu and choose G, and you have the correct key for your song.
 
In a long classical piece, the key may change many times, and there it's even more helpful to have at a glance the correct key sigs listed.
 
One way to figure it out: the relavtive minor of a key will always be a 3rd before it. So, for the key of C, the relative minor is A minor (A-B-C: A is two diatonic steps before C). For F major, it's D minor (D-E-F), and so on. It gets tricky though in some cases though, which is why adding this feature would be helpful.
 
Here is a list of all the major/minor key relationships: (Major keys are in large caps; minor keys in small caps)
 
Sharp Keys:  G/e (1#) - D/b (2#) - A-/f# (3#) - E/c# (4#) - B/g# (5#) - F#/d# (6#)
 
Flat keys:      F/d (1b) - Bb/g (2b) - Eb/c (3b) - Ab/f (4b) - Db/bb (5b) - Gb/eb 6b)
 
As you can see, it isn't easy to keep all that straight, unless you've gone to music school and had it pounded into your head. Or you just are really good at memorizing.
 
The above list is all that is needed to add the minor keys to the menu list. Should be easy, I would think.
2018/10/09 20:33:39
soens
Fortunately 4 me there's much bigger fish to fry in the world.
 
Anyone for giant goldfish fillet?

 
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