telecharge

kennywtelejazz
The other side of the coin is I try to learn and work on new features ( to me ) and tips ...
I have noticed that I seem to have a lot of resistance to learning new things.
I guess I may have an acute case of  Learning Curve Indecision Syndrome  Don't always know where to start .
Once I get started I get overwhelmed easily and just shut down ...

Could this be analysis paralysis (having too many choices)? I am a believer in lifelong learning, but what's the point of learning about features and techniques you're not likely to use? For me, I'm not concerned with mastering any piece of software.
 
I would focus on learning and practicing the things you find fun and inspiring. I know it's not always easy, and the majority of people who do creative work go through some type of block or periods of time where they're just not feeling it. If there's a particular area you're struggling with, then do some searching on that subject to see how others have dealt with it or ask for some recommendations here on the forum.

Hi telecharge ,
 
Yes in the section you quoted a big part of it involves what seems to be unlimited choices ..
 
In my case there seems to be a disconnect if I can't take what I'm looking to learn and find a place to use it as a "before and after workflow " for its application . 
 
For example a tip such as how to use the loop explorer to create my own loops from my own recorded music is something I can handle because it is a bite sized learning curve ..
On the surface I can make a loop , I may even decide to pitch shift sections, change the panning and gain or any other number of things ...
Something like that is sand-boxed within that element of SONAR's functionality ...
IMHO , that would be a good example of a la cart style learning ...
I messed with that for a long time and found that I had little victory's here and there along the way ....
 
the opposite side of the coin , 
For many years I didn't use a whole lot of sends, buses , multi output synth options , read and write automation , track templates , project template's (my own or others )....I can go on ...you get the picture ...
Now during that time I treated my editing in SONAR as if I was working in an object oriented workflow ..
FWIW, at that time I was comfortable using SONAR as a glorified tape machine ...I could get my ideas down fast and dial a tune into a reasonable version of what I was hoping to get across ...
The thing is I started hitting a lot of brick walls ...
I knew there must be a better way ...I did see and hear people on the forum and in other musical communities dissecting and putting forth the info on how to do " such and such " within one's chosen DAW .. 
 
For the sake of what I'm trying to say let me just pick one little thing that I'm trying to do ...and stick to it .
I started getting tired of looking at a blank SONAR project ...in the past I would start that way and build up my sounds as the song progressed ....it seemed to be a lot of work starting there and a lot of time was wasted ..
I started creating some of my own custom track templates ...Yeah OK fine ..that's only the tip of the iceberg ...
Now within that type of shift in workflow I can clearly see the benefits , the thing is there are so many ways of applying these types of things in a musically tasteful manner  ....
My struggle is I haven't gotten to the musically tasteful part yet because there are so many subdivisions of sub workflows within that style of workflow of what can be done  ...many variables , choices and sub learning curves....
for example ....
Yes , I can see the benefits of creating templates , it speeds up my workflow and it has a definite "before and after" workflow advantage ...this is measurable and easy way to see why I would need to invest time in cresting the learning curve ...
Taking it a step further , one I decide to apply automation to any parameter or effect such as volume panning , changing the attack release on a plug or bringing in a reverb up or down in sections , I have entered a whole new world that I'm a newb at ...I can practice these types of things within a sandbox to get good at it , the thing is this sort of learning curve is just like playing an instrument ...
It's not always what you play ...it's what you leave out ...
In addition to that the real world acid test is for me to do this within the parameter of a song and exercise sound judgment ...I must be along in my way of getting to sound judgement because I have survived my many attempts  
of practicing some really bad musical judgment  
 
hey telecharge  it was really nice talking to you . as far as what I like to do that inspires me ...
That is mostly playing the guitar . I have been playing since I was a little boy ...
I need to say this . Guitar playing has had me up against the ropes just like learning a DAW has ...
 
all the best,
 
Kenny

kennywtelejazz
 
I started getting tired of looking at a blank SONAR project ...in the past I would start that way and build up my sounds as the song progressed ....it seemed to be a lot of work starting there and a lot of time was wasted ..
I started creating some of my own custom track templates ...Yeah OK fine ..that's only the tip of the iceberg ...
Now within that type of shift in workflow I can clearly see the benefits , the thing is there are so many ways of applying these types of things in a musically tasteful manner  ....
My struggle is I haven't gotten to the musically tasteful part yet because there are so many subdivisions of sub workflows within that style of workflow of what can be done  ...many variables , choices and sub learning curves....
for example ....
 

Hey Kenny!
 
I think that sums up my thinking pretty much ...
 
As a MIDI nut, I have been a Cakewalk user since the Pro Audio days, and have had almost every version of Sonar since.  I applaud their progress and continue to support their development efforts, and their soft synths.  But for my own use, I have concluded that Sonar excels at being a virtual recording studio.  For tools that support songwriting and composition within the DAW, maybe not so much ... not that you can't, but it can take lots of clicks to do away with that blank page!
 
If you were to walk into a real recording studio, where you were paying by the hour, you had better be ready to lay down some serious stuff, all arranged and ready to go.  This is way beyond the blank sheet of paper syndrome, LOL!
 
For the creative stages, I think that maybe this is a case of keeping it simple, using easy tools to get around in, until you have the sound that you want.  If you can find that in Sonar, great!
 
But in recent years there seem to be a lot of alternative tools that offer a streamlined workflow for the creative musician to consider.  I have recently acquired Tracktion Waveform 8, and I can see why Tracktion has some enthusiastic fans.  It offers a basic recording environment with total editing and routing flexibility within a few clicks, as well as some awesome MIDI musicality tools!
 
The Waveform user guide is 381 pages and can be covered in a weekend.  By contrast, Sonar is a beast, with a 2528 page user guide ...

I work the learning curve as the technical need arises.

kennywtelejazz
My struggle is I haven't gotten to the musically tasteful part yet because there are so many subdivisions of sub workflows within that style of workflow of what can be done  ...many variables , choices and sub learning curves....

Much like "tasteful" music, a good workflow is a subjective thing. All I can do is tell you what has worked for me with the hope that you'll get some benefit from it.
 
For me, staying in a creative flow is more important than the most efficient workflow. However, an inefficient workflow can hamper creativity. It is a bit of a puzzle, and sometimes difficult to find that balance.
 
I do think that restricting your choices and committing to a sound is good advice. See this quote from mixer/engineer/producer Andy Wallace:
 

Andy Wallce
When I was working on eight-track or 16-track I had to make mix decisions while I was recording, and today I can go back and listen to these recordings and feel that I made good decisions. But I now get sessions with 100+ tracks where there will be eight different mics on the same guitar amplifier, and you have to listen to what makes the best blend, and so on. When I get a project that's full of unmade decisions it slows me down, because I have to put my producer hat on and sort out these decisions. I prefer for the recording engineer and producer to decide on the sound for a guitar, but instead, many of them like to keep their options open because they're looking for perfection. So I spend a lot of time trying to make people understand that there's no perfect mix. You can always change a mix and not make it worse. But do the changes improve it? In my experience, a mix rarely gets better with endless changes and recalls. For me, a mix is about trying to find something that works and that makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, and believing in that. If you are rethinking and second-guessing that all the time you risk losing that feeling.

 

abacab
And I also find that by reading these forums, and in reading some of the topics or problems posted, it sometimes takes me to a place I haven't explored yet.  One step at a time ...
 
Plus there are always new tips from Craig! 
 
Expanding the comfort zone is always a good thing! 

abacab,
 
Yes , I also find myself reading a lot of threads where people are problem solving .
In some cases I feel lucky that I'm not having the same problems . In other cases I'm left wondering " am I diving deep enough into the program ? if I'm not , is that the reason why I'm not having the same problems ?
 
Craig ! Yeah Whew he sure is one deep knowledgeable SONAR resource around here ..
 
thanks for sharing .
 

timidi
It seems that anymore, the music is a bi-product of experimenting, learning and fixing stuff. 
Not the other way around.

Hi Timothy ,
 
In can go both ways on what your saying . I'm not sure which point is what you mean from your point of view.
If you happen to read this ...can you clarify ...in the mean time ...
Are you talking about that in days of old when people wrote songs and recorded them as songs ?.
Or are you talking about how the tech end has gotten so far along with what the tools can do that many of today's artists have careers based on stretching the limits of what the tools can do ?...
or option C what you really meant
 
Even though I'm an instrumentalist ( non singer ) the bulk of my time spent in music leans more to the traditional end of music ...tunes, structure , chord changes , melody , harmonic cadences, voice leading , and a bunch of  genre specific time spent learning the language of the genre I was playing / writing in ...
ex, Folk , Blues , Rock , Jazz, Country , Classical, R & B , Bluegrass , Celtic and many forms of World Music have certain foundation characteristic ways of conveying the musics primary vocabulary  in 3 main areas ..
The melodic content which includes phrasing and altered scales ...
The harmonic content which may or not introduce certain dissonances specific to the genre  , and the rhythmic content ....
The rhythmic content can be very advanced and often times it can be a world unto itself ...
 
On the other side of the coin if your talking about musicians that aren't looking to do any sort of music from  a traditional sort of foundation ...I think I can get that whole point of view also ...
A lot of music I have been exposed to since learning my way around a DAW has bordered around sound design type of sounds mixed in some cases with beats ...
I find that whole area very interesting and I can respect how people can express themselves using the tools in ways that are unconventional to me and my level of knowledge ...
When it come to that area , I have only made it out to the childrens end of the pool ..at some point I would like to delve deeper and make it out to the deeper end of the pool ...
 
nice talking with you ,
 
Kenny

rmfegley
I agree that most (even advanced) users aren't going to ever need all the many complex features Sonar includes. So I try to learn methodically the ones that I'm obviously going to use all the time. One reason is that trying to learn them thoroughly  without practicing them a lot is useless, so for example I know I'm going to use the smart tool all the time in the track and piano roll views, so tried to be as methodical and comprehensive about reading up or finding tutorials on that one as possible, and then just practiced a lot. Same goes for other edit tools, comping, setting up busses, patch points, and aux tracks, etc.

Other things I delve into when I find I want to do something and don't know exactly how, and then I just try to find the answer as quickly as possible, so I might not comprehensively learn everything about that particular feature or tool. Later, it might come up again, and I want to do something similar but slightly different, and then I'll learn a little more about it. Setting up remote control of softsynths in the synth rack is an example of that, as normally I use envelopes to automate parameters, but then working on a certain project I realized I wanted to be able to tweak from my MIDI controller (and I couldn't get my ACT act together). Same goes for some MIDI routing stuff that I'd never learned, but then I got Maschine and started using it as a plugin inside Sonar so I wanted to be able to set up different tracks to send on different MIDI channels to control Maschine groups.
 
Other things I'll learn when I'm having to troubleshoot something that's not working as expected. It's usually pilot error, so it's time to RTFM. Or it may be some incompatibility with a plugin that I need to find a workaround for. I only delved into how to use the event viewer because I wanted to send some CC controls of precise values at the beginnings of a bunch of clips to make a vst behave properly and the event viewer seemed to most efficient way to do it. BTW, does anyone else use the event viewer primarily to troubleshoot MIDI problems?
 
And then sometimes I'll learn something new that I might not have an immediate desire to use but I just want to check it out. Audio Snap was like that. I still haven't used it on any finished tracks, but I kind of got an introduction and I'll have to find some more comprehensive tutorials if I want to really use it. Finally, sometimes if I've got a few minutes to kill or I've got Sonar open and I'm at a stopping point or I'm just not being productive so I'll just open up the helpfile or reference manual and peruse features I haven't really used yet, or just look at things and glean some helpful details that I'd missed. One thing in that regard, I've been using Sonar for a long time, and so there are a lot of things that I learned a long time ago that have evolved and new features have been added that I was never aware of, and so I've just used certain tools  the way I learned long ago, and then one day I'll look at something in the reference manual and say "Holy crap, I didn't know you could do that too!" Certain things like basic editing in the PRV I learned a long time ago without ever even reading the helpfile, just started clicking and intuitively figured out the basic methods for entering and editing notes and velocities. So sometimes there things like that where I'll be quite surprised to find things that I didn't know you could do when I actually read about it carefully.
 
Wow, I typed a lot of words there. 

Yes , you did type a lot of words there .
The good news is  a lot of what you have said does make a lot of sense 
The workflows you have brought up in your post are exactly the type of things I want to learn ...
thank you so much for sharing all that
 
Kenny

A quick jump to get to a few posters 
 

mudgel
Sometimes musical inspiration comes from learning to use a feature that I hadn't really bothered with before.

Sometimes there's a real Wow I didn't realise you could do that, moment. Same as a musical instrument when you conquer a technique it opens the door playing more complex elements making for more interesting arrangement and composition.

+1 I agree with you 100 % ...when those type of learning curve breakthroughs happen it all seems worth it 
 

bitman
I work the learning curve as the technical need arises.

WOW you sure said a lot there . It was short , sweet , and right to the point  
hhhmm, considering my posting style do you give lessons 
 
Thank you , 
 
Kenny

Kenny, I checked out you YouTube vids today.
You can play a little.

Hi. I am also in the "learn as I need to" category.
If I need to do something I don't know how, I come here and check.
I usually find what I need when searching here.
If not, I read the manual, and learn something new that way.
All the best.

Zargg
Hi. I am also in the "learn as I need to" category.
If I need to do something I don't know how, I come here and check.
I usually find what I need when searching here.
If not, I read the manual, and learn something new that way.
All the best.

+1
 
My 64+ year old pea brain doesn't hold as much as it used to.
 
Sometimes I have to go back and re-learn something I used anywhere from 6 months to years ago but just can't "remember" how I did it. By that I mean the one-off things that are not part of my "normal" work flow.
 
So ala carte is my style.
 
I still don't use templates (but I do understand their power). I blame that on having so many VSTi programs that I'm never sure what I'm going to use when I start a project.
 
A Forum Monkeys song is different than a BBZ song is different than a solo project song. And within just those three categories each song is usually different than the last.