• SONAR
  • Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/12 07:31:49
bobernaut
Hello again, and thanks for reading this, I appreciate it! I recently tried to post a similar question here but I can't find it, so if this is a repeat for you, I apologize.
 
I was playing around with mastering the other day and had pulled a professionally mastered track into the template and then put mine in below it-you know, for referencing.
I noticed some things when I did this.
 
The pro track took up nearly all of the track lane while mine took up a little more than half.
The pro track had tons of narrow spikes all over the place while mine was closer to a semi-solid block with some much shorter spikes.
 
The pro track showed that it was heavily clipping (red) right from the start of the tune and all the way through it. Mine does not show any clipping at all.
 
My main question here is, what are they (pros) doing that I am not doing in order to take up the entire track lane? I mean, that from the very bottom of the lane up to the very top, there is information but not in a solid block.
 
The pro music style is similar to mine-heavy everything.
 
I have tried to load a picture of this to show you but it isn't taking for some reason-can't you use imgur for this?
 
I would be happy to upload a picture if someone tells me more about how to do this, but I imagine the legends around here know exactly what I am talking about with the spikes and blocks.
 
I would greatly appreciate any information that you can give me on this question.
 
Thank you for your time and I am looking forward to learning more about this from you all.
 
bob
 
2017/05/12 07:35:26
Bristol_Jonesey
Upload your pictures to imgur
 
Get the link code and paste it into this forum using the Insert / Edit Image button
 
Are you sure your 2 tracks are showing the same scaling resolution?
To change it, click & drag up/down on the scale between the track header & the clips pane
2017/05/12 11:39:24
tlw
At an educated guess, the commercial track has been heavily compressed then brick-wall limited and level boosted to minimise the dynamic range and maximise the perceived loudness. In other words, the RMS loudness is very near the peak loudness. This is done to make the track as loud as possible all the way through so it doesn't sound quieter than other loudness maximised tracks.

It's the same reason why the advertisements are often much louder than the programmes on TV. Loudness maximised so you can't ignore them.

Whether this is a good idea or not is a subject for debate. Many think it isn't, others think it's a commercial necessity because everyone else does it. And some just want everyhting louder than everything else all the time.

Doing an internet search for "loudness wars" might be useful.
2017/05/12 12:17:13
dcumpian
You can get close using just limiters and compression, but to get something really loud, and still maintain some semblance of a living, breathing track, you'll want to:
 
1) Compress in parallel. Don't push the compressor too hard.
2) Use a clipper to clip the highest peaks. Again, don't push it too hard and use a soft curve.
3) Start stacking limiters to raise the final level where you want it to be. Each limiter should add somewhere between 3-5db of gain. Again, don't push each one too hard. I find mixing different limiters can give really good results.
 
Regards,
Dan
2017/05/12 14:08:55
AT
There are all kinds of techniques to raise the vol, but if you are doing home stuff you can get close.  The ideas above are good.  If you really want to get it loud you will need to go into each track and find the "best" means to raise each track, then remix, then go back and limit/compress/vol automate the entire mix.  And have a good ear and tools and monitoring system so you catch any unwanted distortion.  That is good work, if you get paid for it. ;-)
 
It is probably best to just raise your own files close.  Your example of being 1/2 the height of a commercial pressing means you aren't mixing hot enough. Get that louder and your limiting/etc. on the entire track will sound more natural and less strained and louder.  I'd rather get 90% there and have the song sound like I want but a little less loud than loud and bad.  Get it loud enough and let your listener use their vol control when they go from Metallica to your song.  That is what it is there for.
 
 
2017/05/12 14:14:54
dlion16
You could also use a loudness maximizer like the free mundt on the master bus… 
2017/05/13 08:13:15
bobernaut
http://imgur.com/a/0pfWa
 
http://imgur.com/a/EGovd
 
Okay, now let's see if this works!
Thanks for your advice guys, I will give it all a shot, but I have a couple of questions still-
 
Hopefully, you are now able to see the "clipped" screen shot. Is this clipped-massively-as it appears or am I not measuring this correctly? I thought that going into the red, especially this much, was an end-of-the-world thing in the music biz and no one ever did it... This record is platinum I would guess (not Metardica).
 
Also, I am sure that I was probably using the T-racks Classic Clipper on this one. Is the misuse of this plug possibly causing some of my problem? Is that why I don't have the big spikes-because I cut them off? I don't know if that's a visible thing and I never thought to LOOK at it, just hear it. Thanks decumpian, for this idea.
 
AT, if I mix hot, aren't I going to have to do some clipping to achieve that? Also, I appreciate your advice on finding the "best" means...-makes sense.
 
Thanks Bristol J, tlw, and dlion16. I am going to give all your ideas a try.
 
 
I hope you guys can see the pictures this time, it would help, wouldn't it?
Looking forward to your wisdom-lay it on me! And many thanks!
 
bob
2017/05/14 13:11:08
dcumpian
Never mix hot. If you do, you will never be able to do anything with the mix to polish it at the mastering stage without squashing all the life out of it.
 
In your second image, it looks like you have a limiter on the track with no gain on it. I find it is best to get a great mix first, mixed at about -10 to -6 db, with peaks up to -3. I don't add limiters to a mix until after I am happy with the mix.
 
Regards,
Dan
2017/05/14 16:58:38
Cactus Music
What I see looking at the image is:
TOP: normal recording,  RMS nice and loud not overly compress some dynamics and headroom
Bottom- Over compressed track, no dynamics, not very loud 
 
2017/05/14 21:41:54
tlw
Looks like if you applied any compression/limiting you didn't use the compressor's output gain control to compensate for the volume lost at the compression stage.

Compression, or limiting which is an extreme form of compression, reduces the dynamic range of audio. It does this by making the loud bits quieter and quiet bits louder. Which usually means losing overall volume, and the greater the compression the greater the loss of volume.. So that volume needs adding back, which is what the output gain control on compressors and limiters is for.

Overdoing compression or limiting makes the music lose its punch because it's all at the same volume, and can cause other problems such as raising the noise floor to the point it's very noticable, often resulting in what sounds like breathing where there should be silence. So it's something that needs to be used with a little care to get the best results. The first question should always be "does this need compressing at all?"

Mastering limiting is similar, but it should be the last thing done to audio to prepare it for distribution. There the idea is to ensure the volume never, ever goes into digital clipping while allowing the music to still have the dynamic range you want it to have. So the final limiter's output should never be set to zero dB but always a little less than that to be on the safe side. Digital clipping is nothing like e.g. guitar amp or mixer channel clipping by the way, it's just a horrible, very loud grating noise that you'll know is just completely wrong if you ever hear it.
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