• Techniques
  • UAD Software or a real preamp for recording, real hardware for compression? (p.2)
2015/10/22 21:57:29
Bob Oister
Hi, Andreas,
 
After working with a few lower priced tube preamps, here’s what I ended up with, and I absolutely love the versatility of being able to dial in a blend of the twin tube and solid state preamps.  I’ve been very happy with it!
 
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Universal-Audio/710-Twin-Finity-Mic-Pre-DI-Box.gc
 
Best Wishes!
Bob
2015/10/22 22:47:50
AT
If you are serious about music production getting a nice single channel or stereo is about the best thing you can do for yourself. I got an RND Portico II channel and it made a world of difference.  But really, almost any preamp with a transformer in it is going to help de-digitalize your recordings.  It smooths the sound and can roll a little off the top end.  Here in the US Warm Audio makes great preamps and hardware for a reasonable price - their Pultec is my favorite now.  But there are plenty of others.  And a stereo comp is always great to have (like the Drawmer 1968) and you can run your two-buss signal through it.  Analog hardware is really good since you can use it several times.  You can play through it when tracking and use it as an instrument itself (audio transformers will saturate nicely before distorting).  You can re-record a signal through your analog hardware, a track at a time.  And finally, when you do the mix you can send it out and record it after it goes through a nice compressor, eq or both.
 
Another suggestion is switch the Neumann for a Micro Tech Gefell 930.  I'm loving the little guy and it is a second large step for my home recording.
 
Finally, the TASCAM UH -7000.  It is a usb interface but very high end, with a pair of nice preamps built in.  They are not transformer-based, but a step above Roland.  You can plug it into the Roland via SPDif or AES digital and that will give you a great 2-channel you can use when recording the whole band and for overdubs.
 
The software is great, too, and UA is known for their emulations.  Very high quality and great for mixing.  Cakewalk's software is very good, too, and the CA2a gets used on just about every song I do.  But if you record the instruments with good hardware then the software really shines and makes mixing easy. 
2015/10/23 09:15:03
bitflipper
Off-topic question for you, Andreas: are German-made microphones cheaper in Germany than they are here in the U.S.?
 
A TLM 107 is $1700 here, or 1500 EUR. Needless to say, I don't own any Neumanns. My "good" mics are American-made, mainly due to price. (Like everyone, my cheap mics are made in Shanghai.) But I have no German microphones - but I surely would if I could afford them.
 
I imagine the reverse is true, that American-made microphones cost more in Europe than in the U.S. An SM-7 is $350  (317 EUR) here.
 
As an aside, I'd suggest considering an AKG C414 for a general-purpose multi-pattern condenser. It's significantly less-expensive than the TLM 107 and can be used for just about anything.
2015/10/24 07:56:24
tlw
Thomann (big German box-shifter) currently list the TLM 107 at £864.33, which google tells me is $1324.

An SM7B from a UK dealer is around £310 = $475.

Both those prices include Value Added Tax (VAT) at 20%.

For most things made in the USA or supplied by a US company (e.g. Fender, Gibson etc) you can generally take the $ price in the US, replace the dollar sign with a £ and that's the UK price once tax and import duty have been added.
2015/10/24 12:12:50
bitflipper
Ouch. I guess it pays to buy domestic, wherever it is you happen to be.
 
Looking around here, at my British interface, Japanese synthesizers and German monitors it's obvious I've not put that principle to work. 
2015/10/26 14:02:44
Starise
I made a price comparison on high quality pre amps and had arrived at around 1000.00 US per channel retail. This amount seems to hold more or less across makers of good pre amps. Since I frequently record in stereo I was looking at either two pre amps or a stereo unit..so a combo unit could run 2000.00  and up easily which I think is a small price to pay for a well made unit. In my studio all I really need is a decent stereo pre amp and a decent compressor, so the idea of having a lot of plug ins  in UAD seems redundant since , as someone already mentioned, we have options in software with Sonar already. 
 
I think Dave makes an excellent point in mentioning that computers are now faster and can probably do pretty much the same thing as UAD. I wonder how much of it is really perception when comparing UAD to other plug-ins. I don't doubt that UAD makes excellent plug-ins...I never have liked the proprietary approach, probably why I don't use an Apple computer. Another good point Dave made..it will eventually become obsolete. UAD has already been through a few upgrade cycles making older products harder to use.
 
 
2015/10/26 14:33:07
Danny Danzi
I'll give you my take for what it's worth.
 
The UAD bundle will NOT help you get the pre-amp sound you may be after UNLESS you buy the Apollo. The Apollo allows you to record with effects the way you would if you had a studio full of analog gear. If you go this route, yes, it (in my opinion) is every bit as good as any hardware gear you would buy. Even there, real tubes behave differently than a software plug. But more on that a little later...
 
Why do I say that? Simply because there are artifacts with analog gear that you will not get with the UAD. I've done a majority of my recordings over the years with no mic pre's other than whatever I sent into a console I may have owned. To me, all I need is to get to -6dB going to disc as well as getting the sound I wanted to capture. With real time effects like how you can use the UAD plugs with Apollo, you can capture a little coloration like you would with hardware.
 
That said, in my opinion there is really no reason for this unless a piece of hardware (or a UAD plugin) gives you a specific sound. In the days of non-destructive recording that we have now, you're taking a chance recording with effects destructively unless you know what you're doing or like I said, have a specific reason for doing so because something may enhance or give you a certain sound.
 
A word on mic pre's: I'll be shot for this, but in my opinion (I've owned some sick gear in my time and trust me, it's been to the point where money was no object when I wanted something) they are one of the biggest loads of hype and crap of all time. How much do people really feel the need to color sound with these gizmo's?
 
I just think they are all over-hyped. When I've used mic pre's, they made things sound different, not better. The coloration achieved (other than if you need saturation from a tube pre) can be achieved once your tracks are recorded. That's another good thing about UAD plugs. They simulate saturation better than any plug you can buy today and can do it AFTER you've recorded.
 
No, it's not exactly the same as having a tube pre...but it's close enough to where the difference you will hear will be at most, 2% or less. And again...notice the word "difference" which doesn't necessarily mean "better". I have sold just about all my outboard gear. I use UAD plugs all over the place (I have an Octo card and a duo in my main machine) and have a Midas 32 channel console that has some of the best mic pre's of all time. (so the industry has said over the years)
 
With that said, the mic pre's in my board sound no different than me running into another console. I do not use my pre's in excess to where they color my sound. I do all my sound coloration in the box once my tracks are recorded.....or I do nothing much at all because I will not record a sound unless it sounds the way I want it to without processing. When I do run the pre's a little hot, they STILL sound really good, but it's rare I do that.
 
So the questions you are asking here are pretty subjective in MY opinion. If you feel you need a tube pre in your arsenal, get one. I don't think they make that drastic of a difference other than adding hiss and other stuff that I/we have been trying to control or get rid of for 40 years. Then again, with certain pieces of gear, you can end up with a winning combination. At the end of the day, what I'm trying to say to you is, don't think outboard gear or tube mic pre's are going to be like God coming into your studio and changing your world. They will not....I promise you.
 
It's not as huge as you think and no one knows or cares but you. Other than a saturation effect, it's useless to me. Do I have one? Yeah....just in case....I own a studio....I need the tools. Do I use it? Just about never. I get exactly what I need from my console and all the rest from Sonar and my UAD plugs that can be used non-destructively. Hope this helps....good luck.
 
-Danny
2015/10/26 15:46:12
batsbrew
i'll go fetch the firing squad.......
 
 

2015/10/27 11:08:18
AT
I'll try to hit the middle, here.  90% or more of the time it doesn't matter.  Most of the time for most capture a decent (not great) preamp will work fine. 
 
But I'm pretty sure my Portico II on big rails has saved takes (tho maybe they weren't worth saving) with big spikes.  I'm pretty sure my old (actually doubleplus old) presonus interface and pres would have cracked on those.
 
There are other exceptions to the rule, but it is a rule, then true, most of the time.
 
@
2015/10/27 13:26:11
jbow
Take a look at the Coudlifter inline preamps for dynamic and ribbon mics. You cannot use them on condensers but they will make a dynamic like the SM-7b even better and will provide a lot of gain for a ribbon mic without exposing the ribbon to any voltage, they work like a diode. They have several models. They are a LOT of bang for the buck. With what you have I think one would add a lot for a little. Cloud makes good mics too as does Gauge.
I realize you were asking about real compressors VS stuff like UAD but these other things are things I would want to see if I were where I imagine you to be from what you have said.
Cloud: http://cloudmicrophones.com/cloud12/products/ (I have the CL-1, it's all I need)
Gauge: http://www.gauge-usa.com/Gauge_Microphones/Home.html more for less...
I wouldn't scrimp on real mic preamps in a commercial studio. I use the Octa-Capture and I'm pretty sure the preamps are the same as in the Studio-Capture, I like them just fine but I'm sure there are better ones.
On a budget, (if I were you) I would look into a single channel (maybe two channel) , high end preamp for tracking lead vocals and do the rest with the S-C.
I don't know but I think you can get more bang for the buck, be happy, and make good recordings without investing in Neumann until you really need to. I'd like to get an AKG 414 because it looks to me like it could handle a LOT of different voices. My voice generally sounds pretty bad through a LD condenser microphone, a good dynamic with the CL-1 makes me sound much better. My voice is airy and a bit high, every time, and I mean EVERY TIME, I go through I drive up window for food or anything, they ALWAYS ask me.. "is that all mam"? I gave up saying anything about it. I am a man... so, the best, high end, LD condenser might let you down with some people.
Just a thought... I hope you get what you need without spending all your money or getting a loan.
 
The last processing hardware I bought was the Alesis Nano series, they still work but rarely (if ever) see use anymore. Home studio, recording my stuff, for my pleasure... in the box works just fine for me.
That said, presentation matters. Remember those pictures of empty Marshall stacks onstage at big shows. Neil Young always played through a Fender Tweed Deluxe. Back in the 70s I went to a show, well before your time. The opening act was out of Tampa, FL. a band called White Witch, They were glam rock with face paint before KISS and before glam rock... Marshall stacks and LOUD! They opened for a band called LOBO. LOBO had a hit song called, "Me and You and a Dog Named BOO". LOBO was a three piece outfit with a guitarist/singer, bassist, and drummer. They came on after White Witch with the guitarist playing through a Fender Princeton Reverb, a small drumkit, etc... they got booed off the stage simply because they came on after WW.
I imagine the same thing can happen in a studio and a client seeing a big control board (even if you just have it turned on but don't use it) can make a difference, especially to a younger client. When people like what they see they have a tendency to like the product before they have even heard it. It is psychological.
Word of mouth referrals... it don't matter what you use or what it looks like, most referrals like you and your work before they have even met you. I guess bottom line, if I had a commercial studio without a stream of high end clients, I would buy what works best and fit my budget and try to (even if I had to buy an old board) try to make things look impressive.
You already have good tools. IF I were you I would add some cheaper mics first. The Cloudlifter for the dynamics and ribbons. Then look at some 500 series stuff. If I were doing a commercial studio I would probably opt for a rack of 500s over UAD, if for no other reason, the looks. You have to choose though, you know your clients. YMMV.
If nothing else, take a close look at the Cloudlifters. Especially if you're getting an SM-7b, that is my contribution!
I hope you do well.
Sorry for the rambling... I love to ramble off but I usually am trying to make a point. I just hope my point isn't lost from rambling off too far, lol.
 
Julien
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