• SONAR
  • Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular basis? (p.2)
2016/03/19 14:51:23
John T
That's the thing, I think. The underlying tech really is excellent. But the workflow design is badly in need of a re-think.
2016/03/19 14:51:40
fitzj
Cakewalk should add that feature into audio snap Lord Tim,  thanks for sharing.
2016/03/19 16:19:17
Anderton
The gated track idea - love it, great tip.
2016/03/20 07:58:24
Lord Tim
Cheers, guys! 
 
Here's a couple of bonus tips that I've put to good use with Audiosnap:
 
SAMPLE LAYERING / REPLACING
 
Rather than bouncing your gated tracks down to a single guide track, use both of them as your Audio Pool. So you'd get your transients right on each track, then right click each one and choose Pool > Add Clip to Pool, and they'd both turn blue. Then go through my steps above for applying transient markers and quantizing, etc.
 
Now why would I want to do that, aside from having to go through the extra step of creating a unified guide track?
 
If you have transients on every hit, you can use those to create MIDI notes.
 
So after you've done all of the quantizing, etc. don't delete your guides just yet. Instead, select the track you want to convert to MIDI, and then on the Audiosnap Palette, hit the Copy As MIDI button (second one along at the top, next to the power button). Next, insert a new MIDI track. In that track, do Paste and you'll get a track of C3 notes that should line up with your audio transients from the track you copied from (be careful where your cursor is, it usually needs to be at 00:00:00 so it pastes at the right place).
 
This is great because now you have instant sample replacement or layering. Got a dull kick drum? No drama - copy the kick track transients to MIDI, and run that MIDI track into Session Drummer or even TTS-1 and you can have the kick played by the synth. It's especially great for layering on a snare track to add crack or to fatten things up a bit when you have a bit too much hi-hat bleed into the snare mic to turn the snare up any louder.
 
(Obviously delete the guides after you're all done with them, and bounce the tracks to new clips as I mentioned earlier.)
 
The small downside to this is that you have 2 guides rather than 1 to copy the pool transients from, so if a transient is quantized to the wrong spot, you have an extra track to select so everything is moving together. Not a big deal, and I definitely prefer to do it this way because of the extra flexibility you get.
 
 
EASY EDITS
 
When I get session guys in, it's rare that they bother learning the entire song (it's awesome when they do, mind you - MUCH less work for me!). Usually it's a case of going section by section, replicating a drum machine guide with their own human feel, and in a lot of cases we're lining up the replaced drums with pre-recorded instruments, so it needs to be locked into the grid with quantizing.
 
The good thing about that is if the session player is decent, the song can go down really fast because we don't need to worry about redoing entire takes because the groove is wrong in some section, or you want a cymbal accent in the break after Chorus 2 or whatever that's easy to forget when you're thinking about the entire song. Each part can be done exactly as the producer wants. The bad thing is that if the session guy rushes a fill or they're not quite in time with the click, connecting each section smoothly is a real PITA.
 
This is where Audiosnap comes in handy again. I typically edit each section as its own thing. I'll slip edit the takes before and after the section to extend them out past where I need, do the transient detections, quantizing, etc. for each section, then I'll slip edit back the other way so the ends are inside the section. I repeat that for each section until it's all quantized, then I'll go through the boundaries of each part and slip edit to wherever I want them to join. The big plus side of this is that since it's already quantized, it's all now perfectly in time so each part fits together like a glove. Bounce to tracks at the end and you're set!
 
You can do the sample replacement / reinforcement trick with this as well too, but with one important caveat: if you do Copy to MIDI over several sections on a track, there's a bug in SONAR at the moment (which I've reported) that makes the note go up a semitone on each split, so you just need to be mindful that you'll need to shift everything down to the single note so you can send that to the correct instrument on your softsynth.
 
Really useful stuff, and even with the bundled stuff that comes with SONAR, you can get some amazing sounding drum tracks using these techniques. 
2016/03/20 18:03:03
Sanderxpander
It seems to me 90 percent of AudioSnap problems would be solved if there was simply a better noise gate on the transient detection algorithm.
2016/03/20 18:49:19
John T
I think it would be nice if there were a variety of detection modes. I mean, the drum replacer detection is superb, largely because it's not general purpose. Would be good to be able to switch between general detection and percussive detection, and do some frequency based fine tuning and so on.
2016/03/21 04:58:13
Kylotan
The only thing that worked for me was exporting to a different DAW where the workflow was this:
 
0) install plugin that lets me click once to split-and-crossfade a track
1) selection-group all the drums
2) click slightly before a kick, snare, or other prominent hit to split all drum tracks at that point
3) slide the audio within the clip to visually align the hit with the grid (also sliding all other tracks with it)
4) repeat steps 2 and 3 until done
 
It might be possible to spend the time creating and tweaking markers so that you can quantise at the end, but the way I see it, if you're going through the track manually to adjust markers, you may as well just adjust the audio while you're there. I can imagine a situation where Audiosnap might sound more natural than crossfades but I've not encountered that in practice, and I also wouldn't use a one-size-fits-all quantisation on a drum recording anyway (since a sensible setting for a typical kick and snare beat may not make sense for fills).
2016/03/21 05:33:22
Sanderxpander
I can, I can never use simple split-and-move tricks because of overhead bleed and ringing cymbals. It works for simple snare replacement but if I actually MOVE a snare you hear a flam because of the overheads. AudioSnap solves this because it moves the hit on the overhead too and slightly stretches the ringing cymbal.
2016/03/21 06:54:07
Kylotan
The example I gave would be moving all tracks simultaneously (via the selection group), so that problem doesn't arise.
 
Now, if we want to talk about drummers who don't hit the snare and crash at the same time, giving you a difficult choice... well, I don't have any fix for that beyond cut-and-paste. :)
2016/03/21 10:04:44
Sanderxpander
Yes it does because there is almost always something going on in the overheads. A ride cymbal, a crash, hihats, etc.
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