• Techniques
  • Mastering Guys (and Gals): Is this mix ready for mastering or would you send it back? (p.3)
2015/09/21 16:31:48
Danny Danzi
Beeps, I'm not in the right place to really comment as I'm stuck on a lappy that doesn't paint the right picture. But based on what I heard....here is what I CAN say. Will listen again on better speakers when I can...try to send me an mp3 when you're ready....192kb at the minimum.
 
Female vocals are hard depending on the voice...especially this lady because she almost sings in a falsetto fashion without much "push" to her delivery. Vocals like hers are always going to be a bit of a challenge because they are so thin. When you try to thicken them up, they walk on something. Trust me....I know all too well. LOL! You just have to ride the fader and automate the best you can while compressing to keep her in check.
 
Robotic drums: This is one of the downfalls of programming or using loops that are created from being programmed as opposed to when someone on a V-Drums kit creates the midi loops. Huge difference. That said, anytime you get a kick drum going nuts like that, unless you use a major drum module like BFD, Superior or EZD2, you are going to have to really tweak the drums. The reason for the robotics.....well, there are a few. I'll list some.
 
1. Like I said above, programmed vs. played for real.
 
The fix: You can hi-lite the kick drum track via piano roll and run a "vary velocity" CAL file. This will allow you to set a starting point (lowest velocity hit) midi velocity as well as an ending (highest allowed) velocity note. This will make things more realistic. But you have to be careful or you can mess things up. So clone the midi track and experiment this way you don't lose the original. What I like to do after cloning is, I select the kick drum and then "process' then "scale velocity" set 127 and 127. This jacks the kicks all the way up through the entire song. From there, keep the kick notes hi-lited, select process, run CAL and look for the vary velocity CAL file. Load it up and it will ask you questions. Set the lowest at something like 100 for starters, the highest at 127 and execute it. See how things sound there...it may help quite a bit. If it doesn't, undo and try again. OR....you manually experiment with each kick drum note and set them until they sound right.
 
2. The drum module selected: This really makes a difference. Though drum modules like Session Drummer and even EZD 1 and Addictive Drums are good....they lack the samples needed to sound realistic. When someone uses BFD 2 or 3, they are drawing from an insane sample pool to where you will NEVER get a robotic hit because you have like too many possibilities within the sample pool to get the same hit twice. The same hits repeating is what causes roboticism (as I like to call it) as well as same note velocities. If you saw a midi of a real drummer actually playing, you would understand things way better. Everything from ghost notes to human error make a midi drum sound more realistic. But the drum module REALLY makes the difference too. EZD 1 failed at this even with their expansion packs. But EZD2 is much better. So far I've not encountered any robotic stuff with EZD2. BFD 2 and 3 as well as Superior 2 are all perfect and will not robotisize when playing them live and are easier to make sound good when programming or using loops.
 
3. The speed of the piece: If you listen to break beat stuff done by drummers on a real kit, even real drums can sound fake when something is so fast. Certain double kick passages will just always have that sense of "fake" no matter what you do if the part is fast enough. Add in the 2 things I mentioned above and you can really have disadvantages in how real your drums sound.
 
4. Samples selected: Some drum modules do have a nice array of samples to draw from within their sample pools.....however, the sample you like may particularly be a bad one for faster material. Some toms sound great with single hits....throw in a fast fill and they sound like Simmons drums. Some snares are insane....until you do a snare roll. So you have to take all this stuff into consideration. You're always going to have limits and disadvantages until you can really understand what happens with instruments for real. Like I say....if you saw what a real drum midi looked like from someone that played say, a part of your song vs. what you have programmed....you'd probably scratch your head and say "huh?!?!" It looks much different than what gets programmed. That said, I don't expect you or anyone else to go out and buy a real kit or a V-Drums kit. My reason for bringing up the above is to explain what makes something real and what makes something more fake than it could or should be.
 
Next, and this is just a personal observation......to me, the lead guitar passages could be a little warmer. I come from the camp of having my rhythm guitars have a bit more cut and presence in the mix so they cut through. But I always low pass the high end out of my solos because excessive treble in a solo makes the solo (to me) a deterrent from the song due to harsher tones. Again, this is subjective and is just me and my personal take....but 'd warm up the solo sections. You want them to lash out, but they don't have to be so crispy in my opinion. That's one thing my lappy is good for....identifying high end. :)
 
Rhythms sound good....I like those tones. I can't hear any bass for obvious reasons....and I wasn't hearing anything too drastic with the widening you used on the vocals. That said, you do not want to put all vocals on the same vocal bus. Lead vocals and backing vocals should be processed differently. From the effects used to the eq/compression and everything else. I could have sworn you mentioned one vocal bus with the widening on there for all vox. If that is the case, change this.
 
Keep in mind, widening will only make a difference when you are using stereo effects and the widening should be used AFTER the special effects like verb, chorus, flange, phaser or anything special like that. Putting a widener on a track that just has compression or eq will do nothing and could even phase the vocals making them sound like @ss and you don't want that.
 
I like to process my vocals in the manner in which you did yours, but I do mine right on the track. Instead of creating buses for effects to my vocals, I literally process right on the track except for reverb in some cases. Why do I do this? So I can put a light widener at the end of my vocal chain. This allows my vocal to maybe spread from down the center to 25L/25R roughly. This gives the vocal a little more size....but is driven by the effects that are on the track. Instead of a widener, I may use a HAAS delay and eq it.....so many things you can do here. I just did a really cool version of Deep Purple's "Perfect Strangers" I can send you to show you how my voice sounds in a situation like that with the light widening and effects. Remember....less is more. It's the way you go about the "less" that makes it "more". :)
 
I'll listen on better stuff as soon as I can. I've been so busy with everything that I decided to do nothing from Saturday until tomorrow. LOL! I missed my girl and she lives with me.....go figure. Had a show Friday, worked Saturday morning for an emergency client and when I was done said....let's go wine tasting. I'm still tasting. Hahaha! So I'll be back to work tomorrow if you decide to send me anything. Talk soon and hope some of this helps for now.
 
-Danny
2015/09/21 17:43:24
Beepster
Danny, dude, brotha...
 
Great to see ya.
 
Without even reading that yet (which I most definitely will immediately after posting this) let me first say I will send you the proper wave file (24/44.1 unmastered) version so you can actually check it out proper. I'll get on that tomorrow.
 
Of course I have mountains of stuff I could say about this. It's been my summer project and I've been using it to test a pile of stuff from mixing stuff to just ripping into areas of Sonar I've been meaning to check out.
 
Ugh... I keep typing and deleting but I'll send the file to you directly in the morning (or later tonight) for you to listen to whenever you like properly. I just didn't want you futzing about and wasting time with this Soundcloud silliness. I'm convinced it does something to the sound and as Jeff pointed out it's of course not ideal for a proper check.
 
I'm also gonna try to refrain from revealing all the crazy thoughts, ideas and crap I want to try on this until after you get a good listen to/look at it.
 
 
Sorry... I'm totally out of sorts today. Did meatworld crap today and it's got me all scattered.
 
 
I hope you've been awesome and thanks a million. I'm gonna plow through your post now.
 
 
Cheers dood!
2015/09/21 18:05:06
Beepster
Read, absorbed and digested.
 
Ya, man. Have fun with your girl. That's important stuff. Gotta keep the lady happy and if drinking wine is what it takes... ain't nothin' wrong with that, eh? lol
 
Lots of stuff in your post going exactly along the lines of what I've been thinking but hesitant about for various reasons (mostly confidence related)... so that is encouraging.
 
I'll get this wave off to you tomorrow to peruse at your leisure. I'm currently giving this one a break and fixing up some simpler, earlier projects before going into phase two of this one (and ya... that was totally going to involve a massive overhaul of the drums... the CAL tip is awesome).
 
Alright... get on that wine and have an awesome weekend, bro. We'll talk soon!
 
Thanks.
2015/09/21 20:38:45
ØSkald
on this I used EZdrummer 2 and that has a fantastic humanizing future built in.
2015/09/22 08:11:15
Lord Tim
I think there's been some fantastic advice given in the thread so far. 
 
I know you're against mastering it particularly hot but even a slight amount of crushing and possibly some stereo expansion will make the vocals and snare disappear, and any sustained sounds like the rhythm guitars will seem to be a lot louder in context.
 
I'd personally add a lot more crack and a little more gain to the snare (It's a tough line to walk since it's a sample, and more articulation can reveal a lot of the flaws in the sound as compared to a real snare). It'll seem too loud once you do this but it'll even out once everything is limited.
 
I'd take the bass down just a touch too, since I feel that's overpowering the low end of the guitars a bit (either that or carve out some more space in the bass in the lower mids so it's not stepping on the guitar too much), and the vocals... I think Danny really nailed it regarding "almost falsetto" female vocals. I'd personally thicken that up with some tube compression which is pushed a little into overdriving, just to give it some more hair, being careful to deess after because that'll bring up a lot of sibilance, and then I'd EQ a bit more mid into it. Then, overall, I'd bump up the gain for the same reason as the snare getting lost once the limiter changes the mix balance.
 
It's always tough to anticipate what's gonna happen to a mix once it hits mastering effects, so what I like to do if I'm sending out to a 3rd party mastering house (I usually master here) is strap a decent limiter over the master bus right at the end and crush it all down a bit, hear how it's affecting the relative instrument levels, and then once I'm happy, take it off for the export for the mastering engineer to do their job properly. Almost always you'll find so much stuff pop out of the mix that you'd never do without that limiter on there, but would otherwise be lost once it has the final work done on it if they actually weren't popping like that.
 
Anyway, just one guy's opinion. Good luck with it! 
2015/09/22 10:12:21
batsbrew
you can always mix into a limiter on the master buss, to know how your mix is going to be affected (assuming, of course, that you know enough about the mastering process to select the correct plugin and correct settings)......
 
then, take it off when doing final mixes to send for proper mastering.
 
it will always be a compromise,
IF
you expect to master to commercial levels.
 
2015/09/22 12:17:20
bitflipper
Beepster
I personally am a conscientious objector in the so called "loudness wars"... which of course may seem completely bizzarre coming from a purveyor of metal. 

Good metal needn't be loud. You listen to it loud, but you don't have to master it loud.
 
Back in Black has a 12dB dynamic range. Black Sabbath's Paranoid comes in at 13dB, Metallica's Master of Puppets is 12dB. Iron Maiden's Fear of the Dark is 14dB, Even Rammstein's Live Aus Berlin and Dark Passion Play by Nightwish are 10dB.
 
Not exactly wide dynamics by broader standards, but much more dynamic than anything in the Top 40, which are often in the 6-8dB range. Metal often sounds louder than it is due to the level consistency of distorted guitars, but metal needs punch, and punch is the opposite of loudness.
2015/09/22 18:09:27
Danny Danzi
Jarsve
on this I used EZdrummer 2 and that has a fantastic humanizing future built in.




It takes more than humanising to make realistic drums. Velocity settings are even more important in my opinion. Your drum sounds are good, it just doesn't sound as realistic as it can. It's good you have ezd2 because it should be easy to fix. The purpose of my message to beeps about the drums was to point out why drums can sound fake.
 
-Danny
2015/09/22 18:36:21
Beepster
Hi, guys. Sorry... I've been off tweedling around on my Linux partition all afternoon doing some personal cummunique stuff and catching up with some folks.
 
Gonna reply to some of the ultra helpful stuff but poking in breifly just to point out that I actually totally arsefracked Jarvse's EZD humanization because... well this isn't being played through EZD. I took his raw MIDI files and ran them through my own VSTi's as part of my attempt to force myself to FULLY produce this track from the ground up.
 
So yeah, the drums are the raw, orginal MIDI files he used to put through EZD on his version going through a custom preset I created using Addictive Drums 2.
 
I was (and am) intending to get really snakers on manually altering the MIDI parts but left it as is for this version to specifically focus on mixing stuff. I guess I almost wanted to keep the drums robotic on THIS version specifically for the effect it has (and out of not being quite ready to go ultra OCD on the MIDI just yet).
 
My bad on that one. Any screwiness in this version has got to be squarely placed on me because I rebuilt it completely from the ground up. Jarvse's version can be heard in the link I posted in the third comment... http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3286869
 
Tim, Bit and Danny... ya'll rule. Lots of thoughts but I'm all intertubed out so I'm gonna go eat some hot dogs and chill for the night.
 
I will, of course, be back and most certainly appreciate the comments. They have been kicking up a shiztorm of ideas.
 
Cheeeers!
2015/09/22 22:44:15
Danny Danzi
Beepster
Hi, guys. Sorry... I've been off tweedling around on my Linux partition all afternoon doing some personal cummunique stuff and catching up with some folks.
 
Gonna reply to some of the ultra helpful stuff but poking in breifly just to point out that I actually totally arsefracked Jarvse's EZD humanization because... well this isn't being played through EZD. I took his raw MIDI files and ran them through my own VSTi's as part of my attempt to force myself to FULLY produce this track from the ground up.
 
So yeah, the drums are the raw, orginal MIDI files he used to put through EZD on his version going through a custom preset I created using Addictive Drums 2.
 
I was (and am) intending to get really snakers on manually altering the MIDI parts but left it as is for this version to specifically focus on mixing stuff. I guess I almost wanted to keep the drums robotic on THIS version specifically for the effect it has (and out of not being quite ready to go ultra OCD on the MIDI just yet).
 
My bad on that one. Any screwiness in this version has got to be squarely placed on me because I rebuilt it completely from the ground up. Jarvse's version can be heard in the link I posted in the third comment... http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3286869
 
Tim, Bit and Danny... ya'll rule. Lots of thoughts but I'm all intertubed out so I'm gonna go eat some hot dogs and chill for the night.
 
I will, of course, be back and most certainly appreciate the comments. They have been kicking up a shiztorm of ideas.
 
Cheeeers!




Ah that explains the drums. AD isn't one of my faves for drums...but AD2 is growing on me in Sonar plat.
 
Funny how we hear things differently....Tim mentioned lowering the bass where on all my systems, I not only do not hear any bass, but my meters aren't showing any from 125 on down to 55 Hz other than a peak when your toms and that bell hit. So on my end...there is no low end and no bass guitar presence at all. That definitely needs to be fixed and will probably be an issue for you if you use head phones. That's one of the issues you'll just about always be faced with. Cans sound too good at times...and the bass response is great. YET...there isn't any because the cans are coloring the sound too much. Put the tune on your meters...you'll see what I mean. We have all kick drum click....no bass guitar and the instruments with the most bass in them are toms and the bell sound effect (or whatever that is) when they show up.
 
We need to hear your bass and just feel it a little, beeps. If you feel a bass too much, you're using too much low end. It has less low end than you think.....however, we want to round it out a bit and give it a little low end. With your kick drums as clicky as they are, you can get away with a bass guitar accentuating 80 Hz or lower if you want. You gotta watch though because you don't want it to rumble. We need to hear it more than feel it. If I were auditioning for this band as a bassist, I'd ask you "do I just double what the guitar is doing or write my own part? I can't hear what the bass is doing and can't even tell there is one."
 
So that's a major fix and if I were mastering it, I would alert you of this to save me from mastering it and charging you. So it would be a remix on your part.
 
On the vocals....believe it or not, on my systems they are the loudest thing in the mix...as they should be. However, the eq curve is so wrong for them, that is the problem. You'll need a craftier eq curve and a good de-esser for her voice with a good amount of compression and automation to keep her consistent. Better you than me with that vocal line...whew, that's a toughie. But it can be done with a little trial and error.
 
I'm still on the fence with the clicky kick drum....but in this style of music, clicky for a double kick is usually a good call. Too much low end (usually 55-70 yields good results when you need a boomier kick...but stay away from that or you'll need to change your bass guitar to clackier because both instruments can't share boomy freq's) and you will literally lose the double kick sound. So keep that where it is....concentrate on making the kicks more realistic and less consistent because they sound fake and robotic. The CAL thing should help with this.
 
Other than the above, you didn't do a bad job at all. The levels of everything (except for that bell thing in the middle being too loud to my ears) sound really good.
 
So work on that stuff and let me know how you make out. Any questions...let me know, ok? Talk soon.
 
-Danny
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