• Software
  • Is there a DAW as good as Sonar? (p.5)
2018/02/10 16:05:20
kitekrazy1
marled
sharke
It's probably also worth pointing out that other DAW's seem to have a much better manual than Sonar's. I think one thing that will have put a lot of people off Sonar is its awful documentation. There are so many errors and badly explained things in its manual, which is a confusing mess that often has you going around in circles trying to find the info you need. I wonder how many newbies demoing the software gave up after trying to read it.

Really? I found that some manuals of other vendors are even worse! But I agree that Sonar's isn't the best.




 I think the lack of a manual when Reaper came out stunted it's popularity.  Tracktion use to sell one. CHtlutl or whatever has terrible documentation.  Manuals are the hardest thing for developers. Some hire 3rd party to create one.  I still like the .chm format over pdf.
2018/02/10 16:23:00
marled
abacab
sharke
It's probably also worth pointing out that other DAW's seem to have a much better manual than Sonar's. I think one thing that will have put a lot of people off Sonar is its awful documentation. There are so many errors and badly explained things in its manual, which is a confusing mess that often has you going around in circles trying to find the info you need. I wonder how many newbies demoing the software gave up after trying to read it.



It wasn't just the lack of a decent manual.  Judging by what I see on the internet, not much interest in reading manuals anymore. 

Agree! Regrettably!
 
abacab
Just look at all the various DAW video training courses popping up on places like YouTube, Groove3, Udemy, ADSR, etc.
 
It seems that the most popular DAWs by far rule this domain.  Tons of content for them.  But it is hard to find anything professionally produced recently regarding Sonar though. 
 
Well there was that stuff back in the X2 days... but how many years ago was that???  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKRYWdEpbc5PgUgvrNuSvVyfv5qkll0qj
 
It may have helped Sonar's longevity and marketability if Cakewalk had invested in video training more seriously.



Videos?! I always hate looking at a long boring self-manifestation video when I just want to know a small thing. Videos are just well for an introduction, but they do not replace a manual at all.
 
2018/02/10 17:13:56
sharke
Yeah videos are crap when you just need a specific piece of information in a hurry. But the Sonar manual has frustrated me a lot in that regard. All too often you're sent on a wild goose chase of what appears to be the link you want, but it's just a page full of other links and inevitably you'll end up clicking back to where you started. At one point I started a list of errata and things that were just plain wrong, but I gave up. I think a lot of the manual is outdated in that it was probably relevant at one point but they forgot to update it with the program. At some point I think they should have taken the documentation for earlier versions offline, because Googling stuff frequently brings up documentation for X2 and X3 with nothing for Platinum, even if you put Platinum in the search query. This had to be confusing for newbies as subtle changes are made all over the program which confuse you if you read outdated docs. 
 
I think one of the best manuals I've read was for the first version of Geist. Clear, accurate, well illustrated, well organized, to the point. The Bitwig manual is great too, and I had no problems with the S1 manual when I demoed it. I think some of the worst manuals I've read are for Melda's plugins - I bought MRhythmizer years ago and still haven't used it because the manual was so confusing (doesn't help that Melda stuff is very "unconventional" in its look and functionality). The Jamstix manual was pretty bad as well, although I got where I wanted to be after reading it 3 times. 
 
Yeah I think Cakewalk really dropped the ball in not providing good training videos for newbies. I recall the YouTube video that was posted here a couple of years ago by a half drunk guy who ranted for 20 minutes about how baffling Sonar was to a beginner, and even though he got panned on here I think a lot of what he said made sense. He just wanted to install the program and get a basic guitar track going, and yet none of Cakewalk's "Getting Started" videos showed him how to do that. I wonder how many people demoed the program and ended up going with a DAW by a company that actually helped them through the baby steps in a clear, newbie friendly way. 
2018/02/10 17:17:35
pwalpwal
marled
Videos?! I always hate looking at a long boring self-manifestation video when I just want to know a small thing. Videos are just well for an introduction, but they do not replace a manual at all.



videos suit business, because they're a lot quicker/cheaper to churn out than proper documentation
2018/02/10 17:46:22
abacab
marled
 
Videos?! I always hate looking at a long boring self-manifestation video when I just want to know a small thing. Videos are just well for an introduction, but they do not replace a manual at all.
 



I agree... but the masses of modern consumers probably do not. 
 
I always download a manual for anything I use, skim it from cover to cover, and use search to look up any topics I have questions about.  But the next generation has been raised on videos ...
 
Just look at the quantity newbie posts on forums from folks who could not be bothered to do a Google search.  You think they will ever crack a manual open?  Ha!
 
I think the fate of a consumer software product lies in how well a product manager and marketing team can reach out to this new demographic.  Cakewalk failed to do this effectively, apparently.  But I will give them credit for attempting to reach Steam users, but that was probably not broad enough exposure.
 
Cakewalk's competition has this one figured out...
 
And for better or worse, for a company to grow and profit, they must keep bringing aboard new users.  Times have changed, and we are getting older...
 
I will leave it here with one final comment on the topic.  It matters little how good a DAW actually is if nobody knows about it beyond the loyal users.  Word of mouth only goes so far. 
 
Eyeballs on YouTube?   FTW!!!
2018/02/10 18:02:40
kitekrazy1
abacab
marled
 
Videos?! I always hate looking at a long boring self-manifestation video when I just want to know a small thing. Videos are just well for an introduction, but they do not replace a manual at all.
 



I agree... but the masses of modern consumers probably do not. 
 
I always download a manual for anything I use, skim it from cover to cover, and use search to look up any topics I have questions about.  But the next generation has been raised on videos ...
 
Just look at the quantity newbie posts on forums from folks who could not be bothered to do a Google search.  You think they will ever crack a manual open?  Ha!
 
I think the fate of a consumer software product lies in how well a product manager and marketing team can reach out to this new demographic.  Cakewalk failed to do this effectively, apparently.  But I will give them credit for attempting to reach Steam users, but that was probably not broad enough exposure.
 
Cakewalk's competition has this one figured this out...




 You are from a different generation where people actually read things.  Sometimes you see a lack of 3rd party tutorial videos is because the developer does a great job on their own.  Image Line is great at this. Google is not always reliable. 
 
 I watched a video from a developer that said tutorials slow down the process of doing.  Even the Waves site one guy said just start out with the presets.
 
 Unfortunately Cakewalk with their frequent updates made it difficult for 3rd party to create resources. Sonar Power was always great but that stopped. 
 
 The best tutorials I've comes across came with project files.  Sony was the best.
2018/02/10 18:09:48
marled
abacab
I will leave it here with one final comment on the topic.  It matters little how good a DAW actually is if nobody knows about it beyond the loyal users.  Word of mouth only goes so far.

That is not only true for DAWs, it is true for everything (albums, songs, political opinion, ...).
2018/02/10 18:23:37
sharke
I don't know why the need to pooh pooh videos in general though. They have their place and are definitely better than a manual for certain things. Sometimes it's just much easier to get how to do something when you see someone else doing it on screen. Manuals can be confusing and even counterproductive if they're not written well. There's nothing worse than reading something in a manual that is ambiguous or creates more questions than it answers. There's an art to writing manuals that I think most software developers just don't have. And a technical manual is going to look far more useful to a technically minded person than a newbie. People forget how confusing a brand new piece (or type) of software is to a complete beginner. Technically minded people are usually pretty bad at understanding what a newbie does and doesn't know, and they make erroneous assumptions about the reader's level of knowledge which causes confusion and frustration. Video instructors sometimes do the same thing, but having the visual demonstration on screen makes all the difference. 
 
Also, manuals are not often organized that well and present far more information to the beginner than they need. This is especially true with "reference" manuals the aim of which is to be as complete as possible. They're not written in a way which is conducive to learning, especially when the new user just wants to get up and running to the point where they can figure out the rest on their own. When reading a manual, you have to be good at separating the stuff that's relevant to you from the stuff that's superfluous to a beginner. I recall learning how to program in C from a book that turned out in later chapters to be great, but man were the first few chapters a confusing PITA to read, unbelievable for a book which claims you don't need prior knowledge. They contain stuff like this: 
 
"When appearing in an expression, char and short, both signed and unsigned, are automatically converted to int or, if necessary, to unsigned int. (If short is the same size as int, unsigned short is larger than int; in that case, unsigned short is converted to unsigned int.) Under K&R C, but not under current C, float is automatically converted to double. Because they are conversions to larger types, they are called promotions."
 
As a beginner, you're left wondering how much of this stuff you really need to know now and how much you should come back to later. I find manuals to be full of unnecessarily confusing stuff like this, and in many cases videos are the best way to go for a beginner. 
2018/02/10 18:26:39
abacab
kitekrazy1
marled
sharke
It's probably also worth pointing out that other DAW's seem to have a much better manual than Sonar's. I think one thing that will have put a lot of people off Sonar is its awful documentation. There are so many errors and badly explained things in its manual, which is a confusing mess that often has you going around in circles trying to find the info you need. I wonder how many newbies demoing the software gave up after trying to read it.

Really? I found that some manuals of other vendors are even worse! But I agree that Sonar's isn't the best.




Tracktion use to sell one.




To their credit, Tracktion has them posted up on their website now for free, along with some videos.  It's not bad, covers a lot in a logical, easy to understand way.  at 463 pages, it's a bit slimmer than the Sonar manual.  https://www.tracktion.com/training/manuals
 
Now they just need to update the manual to include ALL new features! 
 
But they better hurry, with their version 9 due to be released soon.  In beta now...
2018/02/10 18:47:16
abacab
sharke
 
I recall learning how to program in C from a book that turned out in later chapters to be great, but man were the first few chapters a confusing PITA to read, unbelievable for a book which claims you don't need prior knowledge. They contain stuff like this: 
 
"When appearing in an expression, char and short, both signed and unsigned, are automatically converted to int or, if necessary, to unsigned int. (If short is the same size as int, unsigned short is larger than int; in that case, unsigned short is converted to unsigned int.) Under K&R C, but not under current C, float is automatically converted to double. Because they are conversions to larger types, they are called promotions."
 
As a beginner, you're left wondering how much of this stuff you really need to know now and how much you should come back to later. I find manuals to be full of unnecessarily confusing stuff like this, and in many cases videos are the best way to go for a beginner. 




The best intro video courses on C programming are available free from Harvard's online version of 'CS50: Introduction to Computer Science', offered through edX.  https://www.edx.org/cours...science-harvardx-cs50x
 
The on campus lectures are all videotaped, so you can watch online, follow along with the exercises and projects, and fill your head with all sorts of ints and chars...
 
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