Hi greg and thanks again for responding and unloading some concepts that you use, I think that's really awesome, man. I was delighted to hear your opinion pertaining to the whole "box" thing. It seems as though many people that I run into, not just on here though, are very defensive of their methods which seem to be, more or less, traditional but also antiquated (they will hate me for that!) but nonetheless, I will not abandon my position. I think the same way as you do I think-do whatever you need to, when you need to.
 
Thanks for a more in-depth explanation of your quad trick. Believe me sir, I am strongly considering it. I am still weighing that against the method that I am currently using and trying to assess the overall advantages/disadvantages. All advice is valuable in my estimation and I appreciate what you have shared.
 
Thanks for sharing your drive info. I am much happier using the heavier setting but, since you know how I get all 4 guitar tracks, I do not want to continue to re-record them over and over because it isn't AC/DC, you know? So, whether right or wrong, I have decided to stick with less and say that's it. This, after much consternation as I am sure you have gone through the same thoughts with what you do.
 
By the way, I forgot to say, that I put a distortion stomp box on top of the 40% but have it turned down to about 12%. So, here we arrive at about the same settings. Interesting.
 
You know, if there other, none shredding, metal players reading this, they probably think we are goofy, worrying so much about drive and tone, but we know how important it is to what we do.
 
Thanks so much Greg, you have been a great source of contemporary assistance.  Say more if you want, but please don't feel as though you have to!
 
bob
 
 
 
Hi chucke B, thanks for everything, man. I also listen very closely to what you have to say (as I will Greg too) because I think you guys are doing, more or less, what I am doing, or trying to anyway.
 
I know your insights are gold chucke, and you are right-I do need some feedback on my stuff-no doubt. I would love for you and Greg to hear what I do because you would understand immediately I think. I would imagine that others, who do other kinds of music, would be valuable as a generalized consensus sounding board with the "its too loud/I can't hear the snare etc." thing. Forgive me, "others"!
 
I would be most interested in having you hear it for now because I think you have good judgment. Greg too if he is interested. I guess that you are talking about uploading this to the "Songs" category under "Community". I will look into this very soon. I will have to find out if I upload a Wav. or other, and a few more things.
 
Thanks so much chucke, and thanks for considering me to be worthy, it means a lot dude.
 
bob

You have a great attitude Bob. Its easy to reply and help out people who have great attitudes.
Not sure if you know but Soundcloud offers a free account to upload your songs to. there are a few others out there but I find Soundcloud one of the better ones. you can share on Facebook, twitter, exc.
 
No need to reply to this comment, just giving you a heads up on Soundcloud. Peace man.

Oh believe me....its always a process!
 
I actually started the whole recording gig sometime around 1998 or so....  on a very old version of cakewalk lol.
 
Initially it was just a means to record my own band, and we did release a few albums.  One was released "nationally" in 2004, and still for sale at all the normal outlets, but we never got the label backing to become anybody famous.  So long story short.... we kept plugging away and eventually built a dedicated studio as a band, and were recording other folks also to help fund the whole ordeal.
 
We(the band) finally parted ways around 2012 Id say and I stayed out of the game all together for about 4 years.  the last piece I worked on I did with sonar 6 producer edition which was probably released around the mid 2000's or slightly earlier.
 
Ive since gotten back into it and bought into sonar platinum just recently, so its like familiar.....  yet learning all over again with all the new options and widgets available.  experienced newbie, if you will.
 
about the music...  I'd love to hear what you're working on.  So however you want to go about that would be cool.  As suggested by Chuck, soundcloud is a great option.  You could put something up there and link it and I'd be happy to check it out, and Im sure others would be as well
 
 
 
 
 

I've enjoyed following this thread. Thanks guys.

On the subject of In The Box
I think for the project or home studio it's likely the most practical, but the big studios still have stonkin' big desks, and they aren't all digital. There's a lot with warm analog front ends. What I'd give to have the room (and money) for a nice old Neve or SSL desk.

There's got to be a reason why every boy and his dog creates plugins that emulate all the great pieces of analog kit. Sorry that's just my interruption on that bit of a side track mentioned earlier.

What it also points to is the importance of what goes in. That is, concerning the subject of loudness, it's so very important to make sure that you capture the cleanest and biggest (relatively to the desired overall desired sound) sound possible. I always look toward using the least amount of meddling and interference with the original sound that I can get away with. Also the arrangement is very important in carving out a sonic residence for each sound. Like a house, every room has its place and it shouldn't detract from another room, rather it should enhance the appeal of the whole house. When you take care of those things the result comes about with a lot less hassle and your use of plugins becomes a joy rather than a frustration because the overall sound is not pleasing and your work becomes repair of things that really needed to be done at the beginning not the mix or mastering stage.

Sorry if I've rambled a bit but I thought the discussion needed to include this material.

I've helped mix an album at a big studio around here, they had a lot of outboard, Pultecs, Manley Massive Passive, Decapitators, LA2As etc., plugged into a giant digitally controlled analog SSL desk. What struck me the most was how much easier it was to get stuff to "blend" without becoming mushy. Like, I tend to find it pretty tricky to get the kickdrum and bass balance perfect, and getting the right amount of punch vs sustain. In there, the tech didn't even use much processing on them, just running them through the desk together with some mild eq seemed to solve a lot of the issues I have. He said as much to me too, that with plugins you can get a great sound but you often have to fight with the material a lot more.
 
I'm sure a lot of that is skill with the tools, and I'm just me while he works there full-time, but it was surprising to me how good the console sounded without twisting any knobs or adding any of those famous processors.

Hi everyone once again, and as always, thanks so much for all your bits of knowledge. Where would I be, in all this, without all you guys chiming in? I'd be way back to where I wondered just what, exactly, was a "plug-in". I remember the dude who talked me into buying Sonar 3 at Guitar Center saying something about "you just use plug-ins" and I said, "Oh, of course!". A little fun history for you-as a small measure of payment for your services!
 
Hey, chucke, thanks man, I see that's what you and many others do so that's good enough for me! Please let yourself out here unless you don't want to; I shall not refuse your assistance!
 
Hey, Greg...that's a wonderful story, man and I appreciate you sharing it with me (and others?). That is about the time that I ran into a guy, like you, who had just put his first record out and by the same means (not sure if it was Sonar or not because I was so completely ignorant of the whole software-based recording method). I had already retired from the heavy metal business because I knew that I couldn't keep up with the unbelievable expenses in hardware. I had quite a collection but everything had or was switching over to digital and my dreams of being like "Alain and Paul" were vanishing. (see if anyone knows who these guys are-for fun!)
Anyway, for anyone enjoying their coffee and reading this, I asked this guy a ton of questions but he was very reluctant to say much. Fast forward about 5-7 years, and I am buying the aforementioned software-my beginning of my descent into you-know-where.
 
I think its great that things have turned out as they have for you and will find a way to let yo know when I have uploaded so you can hear. I guess they have PM's here? Assuming that's alright.
 
 
Your knowledge has been very helpful because I can always say, "Now, what did Greg say about how to do this?" Same with all you guys-I actually copy and paste everyone's answers down into a simple text file and I also actually re-read this list of answers very often. Hope there wasn't a charge...
 
 
Thanks Greg
 
 
 
 
Hi mudgel, and thanks for reading and joining in with your knowledge! I do not consider your words to be rambling by any means, so thanks. I see those videos where Yoad or someone else is just casually making a few adjustments and without the look of frustrating on his face. Why would he be frustrated? He had a million bucks worth of desk in front of him. I am beginning to think that the desk is pretty much the whole thing, really. I play around with the sims and it takes forever to find what I want and he, and his experience, just wrap the whole thing up in about an hour or two. Yeah, sometimes it takes him a WHOLE day. Not taking a thing away from him or his contemporaries- they have earned it all. But, I get your point...wouldn't it be grand if we somehow had all that equipment? I am going through my list of aunts and uncles-maybe there's a really wealthy one in there that I over-looked!
 
Oh, and your "house" analogy...gold! That's it exactly. I spend an awful lot of time making repairs-kind of low-rent, if you know what I mean.
 
I have recently seen how important it is to begin and end with very clean recordings and usage of proper plugs. I thank you for your advice and for your comments!
 
 
 
 
 
Yeah Sanderx, how awesome that would be to twist those knobs, man! But, at least you were right there, you know? More than I can say by a long way. I have been involved, a little mind you, with some live consoles but I was mostly just the gopher whom they would let take a peak. Just as long as I didn't get in the way! I am fairly certain that, with all that high-dollar stuff, they progressed really quickly. Then, throw in a professional engineer at the wheel, and the whole thing was possibly wrapped up by sundown.
 
Editorial: (for fun-which we all need)
 
Still-how much longer can they effectively hold off the software...the home musicians who are just as good or better than the "insiders" (studio musicians)...digital distribution...and whatever else you want to throw in here. My opinion, which is surely fit for a different discussion (but I will still allude to it here, anyway) is that the sun is going down rapidly. Yes, they still have "loudness" over us (not some of you though!) but the very next batch of kids won't be impressed by that nearly so much. I have experienced this with certainty already. I have tested a small number of them and the "loudness" factor doesn't seem to mean that much to them after the initial "super-blast" hits their ears. I have actually seen many of them immediately reach to turn it down. But, I do digress.
 
Thanks for your input Sanderxpander, I do appreciate any attention from you learned one's
 
 
Thanks everybody!
 
bob

About the consoles...  it reminds me of when I first started playing guitar.  My first guitar was a peavey patriot and a gorilla practice amp.
 
My first "pedal" I eventually got a boss ME30 multi effects deal.  It was the greatest thing in the world based on the ears of an inexperienced player.  I for one wasnt all that talented at that point, and my only point of reference was that gorilla amp.
 
I could not understand why people put so much value on tube amps.  To me it was like...  I can do anything I want with this pedal.  Your amp only does one thing.  Whats so great about it?
 
Long story short as I got better.... the limitations of the 'tone' of digital stuff, especially almost 20 years ago, became more and more obvious.  The first time I jacked into a 'real' amp it was like "oh..  I get it now".  I eventually invested in some real amps and it wasnt til much later that software started being able to compete.  
 
The console stuff, and other outboard gear, is no different.  As you get better at the mixing and mastering thing and as you really study your work vs the work of others, that little something that is missing in a production done all in the box gets more and more obvious.  Its not just warmth.  Things just sound more real and three dimensional when they are captured through some of that coveted gear.
 
When you are in the early stages of recording and you start to feel like you got a handle on things and really have a good product....  you wont initially understand the notion of taking out a second mortgage to get a really good desk.  Just like I thought I could slay the world with an Me 30 and who needed a marshall lol.
 
Eventually you will get really good at hearing what all that outboard gear has to offer.
 
That said... I'm not criticizing anyone who doesnt have that sort of gear.  I do not have the big expensive SSL desks or anything like that either for example.  Im mostly in the box, and I hope that by the time I theoretically would be capable of taking full advantage of a desk like that....  hopefully the software has come around to the point where its darn near just as good.  I do think its already getting there 

Hi Greg, and thanks for even more from you on this subject. Firstly, there's no way that you actually did take out a second mortgage, right? If you did, then you are a bigger man than me my friend! Hail Greg! I won't ask what your wife (the enemy of all musicians) had to say about this.
 
But, while I have not considered the 2nd mortgage, I have tried to figure out what it would take to get all that gear. Outside of being a multimillionaire, I reckon it would take a group effort and maybe some local (or not) investors, and they would not be inclined to "join up" without promise of certain and immediate returns. So, now we have arrived at the mindless babble that accounts for pop music, or, back to square one.
 
Unless I somehow become involved with the imaginary group above (which I won't-not my style), I guess I will be waiting for all the software to catch up.  You know, you have a really good way of stating things. I understand it fully and agree with what you have said. The further you go, the more you see that the plug-ins can't quite do the job, that is to say, not to the degree that the real gear does do the job. The 3-D part I am currently finding to be especially true as I have yet to find a way to have that really full sound, no matter how many imagers I use. I think, "How in the heck are they achieving this booming, everywhere sound?" I think it is what you have said, its just the inherent nature of the hardware itself. No amount of plugs will create this sound. But, I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes along here and tells me otherwise!
 
Thanks for your insight, Greg. For the record, my first BASS guitar was a Peavey and it well illustrates your point. First real guitar was a Kramer-which I still have but have put it in semi-retirement.
 
 

that little something that is missing in a production done all in the box gets more and more obvious.

 
Its quotable, man, believe me.
 
bob
 
 

Hah maybe I wasnt clear but I definitely have not taken out a 2nd mortgage for gear lol.  Anything I have is stuff thats been slowly accumulated over the last 2 decades, and I don't have much outboard recording gear to speak of.   I have a couple gig worthy pieces of gear for live sound, but not the type of "expensive" things were talking about that Id put in a recording chain.  I'm on a budget like most everyone else lol
 
For recording, my main interface is a roland studio capture, which uses the popular roland VS preamps and works great with sonar.  They are really nice, clean and strong sounding preamps more so than a character building type of preamp.
 
Down the road I'm considering one or two GOOD analog preamps and a good A to D converter.  These two elements alone can add a lot of magic.    At minimum, when I am multi tracking each element to build the project, I could run vox and guitar and bass through it one at a time.  I'd still be in the box, but I'd just have a little more of a hefty analog signal chain on the input to the DAW.  I'd still have to capture drums with the studio capture due to the # of inputs required, but it could be worth it.
 

Hi Greg! I should curse you for leading me down the road of destruction...A to D converters...but I won't because I always knew that there had to be some achievable way to improve without going completely insane and spending every possible dollar you ever had. I never really looked that far into it before because I assumed that it was something out of reach, but it sounds as if you have formulated a plan. Now I will have to look into this but it won't be easy because other than a basic comprehension of what you are talking about, I got nothin'. I have to admit though, it sounds most intriguing. You don't have to go any further if you don't want to Greg-I have really enjoyed everything that you have shared-but if you DO wish to, then what is the name of one of these A/D converters that you are talking about? And how expensive is it? Answer if you can but if not then thanks for everything, man!
 
bob