• SONAR
  • Goodbye Sonar, I've had enough.
2015/10/03 12:46:38
GMcT
Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for feedback from the users, this post is aimed at the developers.
 
As a former FL Studio user, I bought Sonar primarily to get access to better quality content; mainly, virtual instruments, which you term soft synths, even if they're not synthesizers per se.
 
I find that I cannot compose an instrumental with any great accuracy and that using Sonar is inefficient and frustrating.
I waste too much time sorting problems/bugs that I didn't have before moving to Sonar.
 
The Excel style "rows and columns" approach utilised in FL's sequencer view does not exist, the closest alternative I have found being multiple overlaid PRV data tracks, but there is a limit to how many different colours of Midi data I can follow.
Comparing two tracks at a time in a multi-track project is simply too time consuming.
In FL, I was free to create a huge number of single or multi-instrument patterns (using piano rolls and step sequences in the same pattern!) and align them precisely with regard to their relative timings, whilst viewing only their size/length, not their content; but in Sonar, I have huge single tracks that have no subdivisions.
Markers, clip groupings and step sequencer clips are nowhere near as accurate or as useful.
Trying to line up two tracks (guitar with drums for example) is a very arduous task, demanding many hours of zoomed-in (32nd note accuracy) screen work.
Not enjoyable, not amusing and a waste of my creative time.
 
Changing between PRV tools creates constant clashes between the note duration value and the grid snap-to value.
Why doesn't the grid automatically reset to follow the note duration? and why can't they both be locked globally until the user wants to change them?
Why isn't there an "end of project marker"?
Many people have requested this feature, but it has never been implemented.
 
Copy/paste and move, frequently results in a small placement error, (1/64th generally) but which requires constant attention over the entire track length.
I also have a bizarre issue with the third note in the PRV not sounding, and yet a copy/paste of that data played normally.
This was in more than one project and required the first three notes to be deleted and replaced, with the copy being unaffected, yet when first placed, they had played correctly until the track became longer.
I have more issues with Sonar, but in the interests of brevity and to keep this post short, I'll leave them out.
 
I can see that for people who record audio, Sonar could be useful, but for a virtual instrument musician like me, it creates more problems than it solves.
 
Whilst researching the purchase of a new DAW, I did read a piece of advice which said "once you learn a DAW, stick with it and don't change".
I think that this is extremely good advice, even if you are unhappy with the instruments available, like I was.
 
I have placed several posts in the forums over the last few weeks and I would to thank all the users who contributed positively with their knowledge, suggestions and encouragement.
I would also like to thank the people who have created video tutorials, of which I have watched many and learned much.
 
So, I'm going to return to being creative in what I view as a technically inferior program but which is far more user-friendly and has a vastly superior interface/workflow.
Goodbye Sonar, it was a real waste of money, but that is something you can only find out by paying for it and trying it out.
The demo is almost completely useless and really needs to be as fully enabled as possible, but load disabled until unlocked.
That way, potential customers can create something of value, which can surely only encourage them to purchase the product, whilst also testing the performance of Sonar on their computer.
2015/10/03 13:05:55
Doktor Avalanche
Graeme McTaggart
Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for feedback from the users, this post is aimed at the developers.


These are user forums as you know. So you'll gonna get it whether you like it or not.

Have fun with fruity loops, I'm sticking with what I know...
2015/10/03 13:33:09
ampfixer
The newest FL Studio looks really good. I hope you can get back to it and be happy. Good luck.
2015/10/03 13:44:35
CL2Zero
Graeme McTaggart
The Excel style "rows and columns" approach utilised in FL's sequencer view does not exist, the closest alternative I have found being multiple overlaid PRV data tracks, but there is a limit to how many different colours of Midi data I can follow.



Have you tried the Step Sequencer in Sonar?
2015/10/03 13:50:57
Zargg
Good bye. All the best. May you find what you are looking for. I will as the Doktor said, stay with what I know
2015/10/03 14:13:00
slartabartfast
It sounds like the layout in Fruity Loops fits your workflow. I was under the impression that VST virtual instruments could be added to FL. If so then buying a full service audio editor/sequencer would seem to be unnecessary. I was also under the impression that FL could export MIDI, in which case you could probably still use both. I hope the developers will not take this to heart, but I fear they will. They have already gone way too far for my taste in making Sonar fruity. 
2015/10/03 14:26:40
Anderton
Graeme McTaggart
Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for feedback from the users.

 
Normally I would respect your wishes, but I feel several points need correcting. Don't worry, I won't be hostile  - I am trying to be educational here for those who are SONAR users.
 
In FL, I was free to create a huge number of single or multi-instrument patterns (using piano rolls and step sequences in the same pattern!)

 
SONAR can combine piano rolls and step sequences in the same track and/or clip, and they can be opened independently and/or converted from one format to the other...or not.
 
and align them precisely with regard to their relative timings, whilst viewing only their size/length, not their content

 
You can show/hide clip content in Track View. I find the Track View inline PRV far more useful than the standard PRV for doing large-scale MIDI project manipulation. I use the standard PRV for detailed editing of individual tracks.
 
but in Sonar, I have huge single tracks that have no subdivisions.

 
If I understand what you're saying, this is all possible using the inline PRV in track view. You can add subdivisions by making grid lines visible. The subdivisions adapt to the zoom level. I have zoom levels tied to keyboard shortcuts for instant resolution changes.
 
Trying to line up two tracks (guitar with drums for example) is a very arduous task, demanding many hours of zoomed-in (32nd note accuracy) screen work.

 
If I had to work that way in SONAR, I would have switched a long time ago. I don't know why you are having this problem.
 
Changing between PRV tools creates constant clashes between the note duration value and the grid snap-to value.
Why doesn't the grid automatically reset to follow the note duration? and why can't they both be locked globally until the user wants to change them?

 
Keyboard shortcuts allow quick access to customized workflows. Remember that a program like Fruity Loops is optimized for a specific type of task and workflow. SONAR is far more general-purpose, but to allow for different tasks and workflows, is highly customizable. A good example is the way it handles MP3 encoding. Instead of offering a built-in "one size fits all" solution, you can customize the encoding options to your specific needs and client requirements.
 
Why isn't there an "end of project marker"?
Many people have requested this feature, but it has never been implemented.

 
Most people know when a project ends, or delete the data past the intended end of the song by selecting in the time line for both tracks and buses so SONAR ends as expected. It's probably not that high a priority compared to some of the other features and fixes that have been implemented, which Cakewalk probably sees as impacting a wider group of users.
 
I also have a bizarre issue with the third note in the PRV not sounding, and yet a copy/paste of that data played normally.
This was in more than one project and required the first three notes to be deleted and replaced, with the copy being unaffected, yet when first placed, they had played correctly until the track became longer.

 
Sounds like note-offs were conflicting with note-ons. If you have notes butting up against each other, you probably need to increase the MIDI buffer size.
 
Goodbye Sonar, it was a real waste of money, but that is something you can only find out by paying for it and trying it out.
The demo is almost completely useless and really needs to be as fully enabled as possible, but load disabled until unlocked.

 
I didn't see any limitation you think SONAR has that wouldn't have been evident from the demo.
 
Whilst researching the purchase of a new DAW, I did read a piece of advice which said "once you learn a DAW, stick with it and don't change".
I think that this is extremely good advice, even if you are unhappy with the instruments available, like I was.

 
The main reason I'm responding to your post is I think that is not good advice at all. My advice would be "once you learn a DAW, learn another DAW." Many people here use more than one program...right tool for the right job, and all that. But, you have to approach each DAW on its terms. Trying to make it behave like the DAW you used formerly will always be a losing proposition because each DAW has its own workflow philosophy, limitations, and advantages.
 
When Ableton Live appeared, I tried to approach it as I did SONAR, Cubase, Pro Tools, and Acid, all of which I had used a lot so I was very fast and facile with them. Live was incredibly frustrating until I realized there was an "Ableton Way" of doing things. Once I figured that out, it was a piece of...cake.
 
And don't even TRY to think of Traktor as having anything to do with any DAW...
 
What I don't understand is if you were happy with Fruity Loops except for the virtual instruments, why didn't you just buy additional VST instruments to supplement them? Or switch to Reason, which has its roots in MIDI sequencing and includes some really great instruments? (I often ReWire into SONAR specifically to use those instruments...the two programs get along very well. I suspect they may go to dinner and a movie together when I'm not around.)
 
Frankly, a post like this seems like going into a car forum and saying "I bought an SUV, and while it carries lots of stuff and is quite safe, the gas mileage isn't very good and I can't take corners fast. I regret buying the SUV and should have bought a sedan." Fair enough...you should have bought a sedan. 
 
Fruity Loops is a fun program and fits certain types of needs very well. It sounds like you're their target customer. I guess someone like me is SONAR's target customer (i.e., I handle a wide variety of commercial projects, as well as music creation and audio for video), which is why I use it for the majority of my musical needs. If I was doing the soundtrack for "Lord of the Rings" and had to swap files on a daily basis with crews in Australia, the USA, and Europe, I'd use Pro Tools because that's what they would be using. 
2015/10/03 15:42:37
Beepster
Yeah, alright. Thanks for wasting my time trying to help you.
 
If you wanted FL or Ableton then you should have bought those programs.
 
You wanted a sequencer, not a freaking DAW.
 
BTW... Sonar CAN do that stuff if you learn how to use it properly but not exactly in that way AND a lot of the content/instruments will still work in other programs.
 
This is on you. Not Cakewalk.
2015/10/03 15:48:08
LANEY
Thank you Craig! Very informational!
2015/10/03 17:57:22
kevinwal
Posts like the OP's have always bothered me, perhaps unreasonably so, but there ya go. To me it's like the decision to stop using a piece of software is some kind of major news event rather than what it actually is: a choice akin to paper or plastic, wool or cotton or Coke or Pepsi. I mean who cares, really? I blame Facebook.
 
OP, I'm sorry you didn't find Sonar to be what you thought it was despite the many hundreds of articles and videos available online, the easy accessibility of the incredibly gi-normous reference manual not to mention the full-featured demo. Indeed, your need to throw a departing neener-neener into the user forum (where many individuals stand ready to offer you free support) as a going away gesture rather than sending an email to the dev team with your feedback is totally and completely understandable.
 
See ya.
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