• SONAR
  • Goodbye Sonar, I've had enough. (p.3)
2015/10/04 05:38:07
kennywtelejazz
Would like to take this opportunity to say thanks to the OP for sharing his opinion .
I do not share the same views he held about SONAR at all , but I do understand how frustrating it can be to have to learn to adapt to a program as deep as SONAR .
To go there and have a natural workflow with predictable and exact results requires a lot of patience and skill to accomplish that desired goal ….
Can't say I'm all there yet with SONAR , I do keep on working on cracking that nut , yet I can freely admit the fault lies within me as far as my progress goes , not with SONAR ….
The resources to learn SONAR are there and always have been …
When I get super frustrated with the learning curve , I end up playing my archtop guitar acoustically for hours on end to spit in the face of the digital revolution and the short electric choker collar it seems to have placed around my neck  
 
Anyway , the only reason why I am participating in this thread is because you have actually done me a favor ….
About a month ago I had downloaded the FL 12 demo and it has been sitting on my hard drive uninstalled ….
After reading your post I said to myself , what the hell , let me see for myself what this guy is talking about ….
Ran the installer and spent 3 hours poking around FL …..
Had a real blast ….I didn't do anything worth a $hit in 3 hours , but I did have a lot of genuine fun trying …
 
The GUI is so different from what I am used to …. It sort of has an Alien / Hieroglyphics  type of vibe going on ..
I'm gonna mess w it in my spare time and make a decision later on whether I will buy it or not ….
 
Hey Man , if you want to leave , do what you have to do ….
Before you go , have you considered there may be  a middle of the road approach to this issue that you can take as another option ?..
You already bought SONAR Right ? , why dismiss it ? most of the included soft synths and a good deal of the plugs will run in other DAW hosts …a lot of those assets kick the living pants out of what other DAW's include in their products …
Anyway taking a step back can be a good thing , once the breather is over , who knows with a little elbow grease you may come to really like SONAR and what it brings to the table ….
 
FWIW , I started a thread like this a little over a year and a half ago …
I told people I was so fed up with after having upgraded my computer to  Win 8 and jumping from SONAR 6 to X3 that I was gonna take my commuter to the shooting range and use that Rig for a target….I kid you not …. 
Folks here did help me out and I stuck around  a few probably wished i left , I'm here to stay 
 
 
good luck to you , 
 
Kenny
 
2015/10/04 05:48:33
n13L5
So you expected Sonar to work like Fruity Loops but with greater variety of sounds you can create.
 
You know...  you can use all the Instruments that come with Sonar from another package that supports plug-ins.  So you got what you wanted, just use the stuff with some audio product that works more like FL, if that's what floats your boat.
 
There are *some* features in Studio One that go in that direction, where you still have the full track concept of Sonar, (which is more practical for recording contiguous life performances), but you can create any number of any size sections that cut across all tracks of the project and can easily be copied or moved around within the song.
 
Still not the same as FL, so if you're a one-person tinkerer who creates all his music measure by measure, FL is probably still your best bet.
2015/10/04 07:00:31
Kylotan
I don't see a problem with posts like this one. Forums shouldn't be some sort of self-congratulatory group where we all talk about how amazing our choice of software is. This guy had some problems and it's useful for developers to hear from such dissatisfied users. If they only listen to happy (or mostly happy) customers that's not going to expand their market. That's how things stay broken while the outside world looks in and says, "why haven't they fixed <xyz> yet?"
 
As someone whose first experience with music programs was trackers and sequencers, I can understand the frustration. To some degree, they are very different from a classic DAW, but in other ways, they are not, at least not in 2015. You can record and mix tracks of audio with FLStudio, you can arrange clips, record automation, add effects, compose using the piano roll, use VSTis, etc. With so much overlap, it's not unreasonable to think you can move from one to the other - the issue is just how much you lose compared to how much you gain.
 
Some of this is about the learning curve - yes, there is no 'Excel style "rows and columns" approach utilised in FL's sequencer view' in Sonar, but Track View with inline PRV is quite similar. No, it's not necessarily as compact for that purpose, but it's not flawless either (e.g. if you create a 2 bar pattern in FL's Piano Roll, those notes won't line up with the 1 bar pattern in the Step Sequencer tracks)
 
But other complaints are valid and highlight gaps in the Sonar workflow. Clips and clip groups are a very weak alternative to the arrangement potential of FL Studio's patterns. As OP says, 'huge single tracks that have no subdivisions' reflects the extra bookkeeping you need to do to arrange music in Sonar. And forget to lock a clip before you start editing the one adjacent to it and it'll just merge them together for you. If one of them was a linked clip you now broke every other copy of it in the song too, so hopefully you notice this happened when you switch things back to track view. Moving things around to arrange a song is arduous unless you've gone to the effort of switching the snap mode to 'To Measure' AND you went to the effort to make sure everything started on an exact measure. Sure, you could leave it on Snap By instead of Snap To, except that doesn't work well with actual composition.
 
EDIT: Removed rant about step sequencer and matrix view as I've calmed down a bit now - but they really need to be fixed or taken out.
 
2015/10/04 07:07:29
fireberd
A couple of years ago I bought ProTools MP9, as most of my friends in Nashville use ProTools.  MP9 only recognized proprietary hardware (I had an MAudio Fastrack Ultra 8R that was compatible).  PT10 came out and it was supposed to be compatible with no proprietary hardware.  I got the 30 day download as I wanted to try it with my Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 which was certified as compatible.  I had to jump through hoops to get it to recognize the Saffire Pro 40 and even Focusrite support couldn't help.  I was finally able to get PT10 to recognize the Saffire Pro 40 but only with the help of Sweetwater tech.  Having used Sonar for a while (I started with Sonar 7) it was hard for me to get into ProTools so I abandoned it.  I've just stuck with Sonar since.   This is sort of the opposite of the user not happy with Sonar. 
2015/10/04 10:22:53
bitflipper
I'm going back to FL, too.
 
The elastic wore out too fast on the Hanes, so it's Fruit of the Loom for me now.
 
Hey, the OP said he didn't want feedback.
2015/10/04 10:42:25
gustabo
bitflipper
The elastic wore out too fast on the Hanes, so it's Fruit of the Loom for me now.
 

I have yet to find a brand where the elastic doesn't wear out from repeated washings...
2015/10/04 11:55:28
fireberd
I can't go back to FL, I'm in FL.
2015/10/04 12:18:40
Anderton
Kylotan
I don't see a problem with posts like this one. Forums shouldn't be some sort of self-congratulatory group where we all talk about how amazing our choice of software is. This guy had some problems and it's useful for developers to hear from such dissatisfied users.

 
There's nothing inherently wrong with posts that complain about SONAR. However, context matters. The definition of this forum is "Discussion focused on the use of SONAR Producer, Studio, Essential and Base." There are four forums in the Feedback Loop section, with three devoted specifically to problems related to SONAR, the forum, and the store, as well as one to post ideas and suggestions. The OP didn't answer anyone's question, offer any tips, or help anyone better achieve their goals of making better music with SONAR.
 
When you [kylotan] post a complaint, the ones I've seen are in the context of a) you know the program, so the problem is not due to lack of knowledge, b) you ask for confirmation from others that they experience the same problem to make sure it's not pilot error or something system-specific (which then encourages discussion, and sometimes reveals workarounds), and c) this helps people use the program better because they've been warned about a specific, reproducible issue. This to me is constructive criticism that often has a positive outcome. 
 
The premise that the OP didn't want feedback and was addressing the developers seems odd. Then why not use one of the forums mentioned previously, or use the "contact Cakewalk" option available from the top nav bar? Why post in a peer-to-peer forum and then say you don't want feedback?
 
But I think it's also a matter of courtesy. When I switched to SONAR, it never would have occurred to me to be so rude as to go into forums of the programs I used previously and say I was switching to SONAR, and good-bye to those programs. Those forums had people who were solving problems, exchanging tips, figuring out workarounds, etc. I feel it would be extremely narcissistic to think my opinion of a program is so important that I need to tell people the software they're using is a "waste of money," "inefficient and frustrating," "not enjoyable, not amusing and a waste of my creative time," "it creates more problems than it solves," "the demo is completely useless." That's not constructive criticism, that's a tantrum from someone who doesn't get his own way.
 
Never mind that my experience with SONAR is the exact opposite of what he describes. Why? Because only a fool wouldn't realize all programs have limitations, and the reason why so many programs exist is because people have specific needs, and they will assess a program's strengths and limitations in order choose the one that's most compatible with what they want to accomplish, in the way they want to accomplish it. There is no one-size-fits-all program.
 
If I had to use Fruity Loops for the kind of work I do, I would run screaming from the room. So should I go into the Image-Line forums and complain about all the things it doesn't do? Of course not. It's a fine program and the perfect match for many users. Just because it's not the perfect match for me, why should anyone care? Especially those who enjoy the program?
 
Finally, there's a difference between posts by experienced users who describe real limitations that exist and require fixing, and short-term users who experience limitations due to lack of knowledge or familiarity with the program. Rant posts often include a mixture of real and imagined problems.
2015/10/04 16:09:31
kitekrazy1
 I have both and I'm more of an FL fanboy than Sonar but for me they are like apples and oranges. Audio loops are much easier in Sonar.  Multi out VSTs are easier than FL.  VE Pro will not work in FL.
 I like them both but they are so different. BTW you will see the anti FL12 rants at Image Line as well.
 
  These type of posts are a dime a dozen.
2015/10/04 16:41:27
Anderton
kitekrazy1
These type of posts are a dime a dozen.

 
A sad comment on a world that now revolves primarily around "me me me."
 
I have both and I'm more of an FL fanboy than Sonar but for me they are like apples and oranges.

 
Which is a good thing if you like both apples and oranges 
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