Andrzej Salm

scook
Posting about screensets in a thread about lenses or the general 2016.11 thread may not be the most efficient way to ask Artist users a question.

Quite possibly, yes. I can't be bothered to start a new thread though....

Andrzej Salm
Thank you very much, icontakt I really appreciate your help.
I am going to stick to 2016.10 though. It all sounds like too much bother to be honest. Hopefully it will be resolved in December. If not, then I'm out...

 
I hate to say this, but what I'm getting from this is that you feel the need to vent about things changing from what you're familiar with, but are not actually interested in anyone's help trying to get your problems solved. You just want things to stay the way you're familar with them. Which is fine in and of itself; you should likely go with your gut and stick with the version you like and stop upgrading then. But posting rants about new functionality and then, when someone offers you constructive advice , answering that you "can't be bothered" to follow it, is a bit frustrating for people. 
 
Personally I have never used screensets or lenses all that much, I seem to get along pretty well just sticking with the default environment and minimizing / calling up views as I need to. Probably that slows me down a bit, but I do manage to get things done so I don't worry too much about UI changes - I just kind of adapt to them as they come up, and try to see the usefulness or logic behind the change so I can incorporate it if it makes sense to me. But I can sort of see where CW is heading with the new paradigm that underlies Lenses and I think it could end up being useful to me as I move forward with the program. 
 
I have to agree with John overall though - this pretending that 8.5 was somehow the pinnacle for Sonar and everything has been downhill since then, strikes me as a rather rose-coloured-glasses view of the glories of the past - I have been with Sonar since version 5 and for my money the current version, little hiccups here and there notwithstanding, is better than it's ever been in virtually every way, by a country mile. Pre-skylight interfaces were a hot mess of inscrutable little buttons by comparison.
 
But, one man's fish is another man's poisson... 

That was a great post Subtlearts. very well said.
I haven't spoke much about Lenses yet because I am still learning to incorporate them in to my work flow.
At first glance, im not a huge fan. I thought I would be, but there are just too many global changes im not happy with. But with all that said, before say "Im rolling back" I need to give it a fair chance and not afraid to say, I need to learn more about how I can use them.
 
Sonar 8 was a great software no doubt but we have seen this time and time again, people just don't like change.
even when its for the better. remember how many people complained about the "Save button" being removed from the control bar .
 
Well the gave us the "Custom module" which allows us to do this now and people have found other reasons to be unhappy. its all about change, not everyone likes change. Myself ? Im kind of a middle of the road type of guy.
I am not a big fan of change but I realize this 1 very important detail...
Without change, there is no ceiling. no way to grow, no way to get better.
 
So I welcome change just like I did in the late 1990's when I realized my old tape machines might not be included in future plans. I didn't sell them, I just started to learn the digital audio dance.
 
Sonar platinum and especially this new version 11.2016 is better than its ever been (well minus a few hiccups here and there..and a few things I would personally like to change)

the thing to remember about commercial software is that is has to keep changing in order to keep getting paid for - and those changes aren't necessarily going to be in your favour... the sonar x-series seems like it was cakewalk's big refactoring (under-the-hood changes, new gui) to bring the codebase up to date, and now changes in the current sonar aimed at  simplifying things for new users, the target market... it will (hopefully!) soon be as stable as 8.5, although monthly updates always means there's more chance of a bug but also more chance of that bug fixed by next release (depending on how "agile" the internal processes really are)
 
venting is useful as it quite often reveals a solution previously unnoticed, as well as the psychic relief experienced by the venting user (the OV!)
 
software is dynamic and so should its users be!

I don't (yet) see myself using lenses, but I said that about screensets is O nail I understood their use and made them work for me...

Screen sets are still working fine here, but as I'm not using lenses, maybe there is a problem within the lenses themselves? ...or maybe simply learning their setup/use more thoroughly?

I had a situation with Microsoft Word that some people have with SONAR. I had been using Word 95 forever - written books with it, articles, etc. It did everything I needed. When I joined Gibson, I had to get on the same page as everyone else and started working with Office 365. Word was nothing like what I had been using. It was disorienting and slowed me down. However, I had to use it.
 
Over time I realized it had a huge number of time- and labor-saving features Word 95 didn't have. I invested the time in learning them, and that investment has paid for itself many times over. I would never want to go back to Word 95...I could, but it would cut my productivity by probably 30%.
 
Many times a change in SONAR isn't really that much of a change once you learn how it works. After spending a few minutes with the documentation, it didn't take me long to figure out I could use Take Lanes almost identically to how I had used Layers. It was mostly about choosing the appropriate Transport record mode and editing tools. I wrote a column about this for Sound on Sound magazine.
 
I also think one's attitude about SONAR and change depends on how you use it. If you're a hobbyist, then you might not have much time to play with SONAR, so you just want to come home, relax, and make some music...not spend time learning about the new anti-gravity module. OTOH if you depend on SONAR (as I do), even though the changes put up a speed bump in the workflow, once learned they can make a huge, time-saving improvement. In this case it's about an investment. If I invest 1 hour in learning something, and it saves me 20 hours over the course of the year, then I'm really glad that feature exists.
 
I'm still wrapping my head around Lenses, but I suspect that I'll find a use for them that's beneficial so I'm investing the time in learning about them.
 
 

panup
 
I wonder why CW does not call them workspaces.
It would sound more intuitive, at least for Adobe users... 

The reason why is the functionality is similar, but what other programs call "workspaces" (Adobe isn't the only one) tend to be subsets of what SONAR's Lenses do. Also I think Lenses may acquire additional functionality that would remove them even further from the "traditional" definition of workspaces. The name "Lenses" was chosen so a) people wouldn't assume automatically they're just like workspaces, and b) because they're intended to "focus" on particular aspects of SONAR.

Needless to say I'm glad you have posted in this thread Craig. I just bought your book. I don't know when I will have time to read it though.  I didn't know it was 311 pages long.  
 
I thought I understood lenses when I started this thread. I'm not so sure now. I still like them just that they are somewhat deeper then I thought. What I don't understand is the negativity some express about them. I don't find them intrusive. If one can't see a use forget forget about them. Be happy for those that can.
 
I'm a Wordperfect user from the early DOS days. Never liked Word. I finally upgraded it to X8. I had been on X5 for a long time.     

John
What I don't understand is the negativity some express about them.

It's easy to think that people are just resistant to change, but that doesn't explain why someone would resist change. Often, the unspoken conclusion is it's due to someone being a Luddite, but I think that misses the point in the vast majority of cases, and does a disservice to those who resist change. 
 
At my seminars I often talk about the conflict of the intuitive art of making music with processes that require conscious thought. The two are opposed to each other. The example I always give is you have some great groove going, then the phone rings or there's a mechanical problem. There goes the groove, because you had to switch from right-brain to left-brain thinking. Rarely can you get the groove back.
 
So the initial response to an "upset the applecart" shift is "this will make the process of making music more difficult" because it will require left-brain thinking to learn it, which goes against the right brain, which just wants to make music.  And those who resist change for this reason are right. But - they need to take this process one step further, not stop just shy of the finish line.
 
A shift can cause a disruption but once you get past the disruption and integrate the shift into your workflow and it becomes second nature, the right kind of shift can actually make a more accommodating environment for right-brain thinking. Take track icons: an image appeals directly to your right brain, whereas a text label requires left-brain parsing. It's a tiny change, but all my songs use track icons now and it may sound weird, but my music is better because of it. Cakewalk has added a ton of features to SONAR (some big and some small) that once assimilated, streamline workflow so you can make better music.

Anderton

John
What I don't understand is the negativity some express about them.

It's easy to think that people are just resistant to change, but that doesn't explain why someone would resist change. Often, the unspoken conclusion is it's due to someone being a Luddite, but I think that misses the point in the vast majority of cases, and does a disservice to those who resist change. 
 
At my seminars I often talk about the conflict of the intuitive art of making music with processes that require conscious thought. The two are opposed to each other. The example I always give is you have some great groove going, then the phone rings or there's a mechanical problem. There goes the groove, because you had to switch from right-brain to left-brain thinking. Rarely can you get the groove back.
 
So the initial response to an "upset the applecart" shift is "this will make the process of making music more difficult" because it will require left-brain thinking to learn it, which goes against the right brain, which just wants to make music.  And those who resist change for this reason are right. But - they need to take this process one step further, not stop just shy of the finish line.
 
A shift can cause a disruption but once you get past the disruption and integrate the shift into your workflow and it becomes second nature, the right kind of shift can actually make a more accommodating environment for right-brain thinking. Take track icons: an image appeals directly to your right brain, whereas a text label requires left-brain parsing. It's a tiny change, but all my songs use track icons now and it may sound weird, but my music is better because of it. Cakewalk has added a ton of features to SONAR (some big and some small) that once assimilated, streamline workflow so you can make better music.

I think a good way to incorporate change, which follows from your left/right brain comment, is to set aside days for working at your DAW on non-musical activities.

For example, every Thursday learn something new about your DAW (left brain), and avoid doing anything artistic (right brain). And vice versa, don't try to learn something new when you're working on a song or mix

Separating the activities with dedicated time can help to avoid a lot of frustration.

VariousArtist
I think a good way to incorporate change, which follows from your left/right brain comment, is to set aside days for working at your DAW on non-musical activities.

For example, every Thursday learn something new about your DAW (left brain), and avoid doing anything artistic (right brain). And vice versa, don't try to learn something new when you're working on a song or mix

Separating the activities with dedicated time can help to avoid a lot of frustration.

I agree 100%. From time to time I "study" SONAR in the same way that I'd practice guitar. In particular, I'll take one topic, and delve into it in depth.
 
Those with limited time on their hands might think "I don't have the time to do this." But again, it's an investment. If you spend 1 hour but gain even just 3 hours over the course of a year from what you've learned, you've had a 300% return on investment for that year alone - not bad!