chuckebaby

sharke

brundlefly
The 'comp clip' in the parent track behaves like a single 'merged' clip, and it's so easy to bounce to clips or flatten comp, I really don't see how this is such a showstopper for anyone. I wouldn't object to having the option, but personally, I would almost never choose to overdub to the same clip; editing and arranging MIDI drums is much easier with different kit pieces in different lanes.
 
Here are a few quick examples of things you can't do with a merged clip:
 
- Slip-edit and then groove clip different parts to start/end/repeat at different intervals.
- Split, copy, cut, paste, drag and mute chunks of individual parts in the track view to build an arrangement.
- Try out different patterns of the same part.
- Have all hi-hat or hand drum articulations kept together but easily isolated from other parts.
- Apply MIDI FX to individual parts as Clip FX.

I totally get that and indeed there have been instances when I have actually chosen to have different drums in different lanes, however that's just one way of working. I guess it depends on where you came from and perhaps even the genre as well. Many people approach drum programming from a drum machine perspective where you would leave it looping and layer the parts, ending up with everything visible in one clip. Some would say it's just easier and "tidier" to work with and see everything in one clip, and for the most part I agree with them. I guess there's a reason why other DAW's have this functionality, and that's because it's popular. I agree that it's not a showstopper, but it does contribute to a niggling sense of user unfriendliness. 

the video I posted on the previous page (though I know its not what most want) shows me doing just that.
Looping a drum part over and over adding in each kit piece one at a time. I still do the same thing now and then fine tune edit my drum parts in the PRV.
 
All that is need is to select the region after looping/recording is complete and select "Bounce to clips" and it all remains one clip. I don't know maybe im misunderstanding something. At any rate it would be nice to have an option for those who need it, myself I don't but I still understand we all work differently.
 

Yeah I work the same way all the time and am used to it now, but it did cause me a lot of unnecessary confusion at the beginning and I can't help feeling that most new users would expect to be able to build up a drum track part by part, on loop, without having to worry about multiple clips building up. Because once you hit stop, that's a whole big mess you have there until you bounce it. And if you aren't yet aware that you can simply lasso them all and bounce them, you're going to get mighty frustrated. 
 
Part of this frustration is that the newbie is unlikely to yet know how to select stacked clips. I know I had this confusion. Someone said to me "oh you just have to select all the clips and bounce them," and I was clicking on the first clip and wondering how in the hell I was going to select the ones beneath them. I don't think it's entirely obvious to a newbie that lassoing selects the whole stack whereas clicking doesn't. Of course someone on the forum set me straight, but it still added to the frustration I felt when I was relatively new to the program, and when someone is perhaps demoing a number of DAWs to see which one feels right for them, this is the kind of thing that's going to influence the decision. There are people out there downloading demos of DAWs and the first thing they do is think right, let's get some beats going and see how easy it is. If doing something as simple as layering a kick, snare and hat is significantly less confusing in Abelton or Studio One than it is in Sonar, then that's going to influence their decision. I'm not saying that it's going to be the deal breaker, but decisions are made based on an accumulation of factors, and to a newbie, one of those factors is going to be "how intuitive is it to perform simple tasks without having to root around a manual and ask questions on forums." 

I hear what you're saying, James, but to address noob confusion, the 'merge; feature would also need to be enabled by default. That would be a non-starter for me.
 
I'm already mildly annoyed that the new Note Chase feature is enabled by default. I have only a select few projects that can really benefit from this, and a lot of my piano-based projects sound funky when playing short snippets while editing. Retriggering MIDI is not the same as restarting playback of recorded/frozen audio.
 
Anyway, no big deal either way on the 'merge' feature. My comment about the necessity being 'overblown' is just a response  to hyperbolic wording like "ridiculous", "essential", "shocked", "baffled". At most I would give this omission "surprising" and "disappointing". 

Some may want to record say a kick on the first pass and snare on the second etc.  But where this falls down with new clips being generated each time is you might want to do say a kick and snare hits first pass and some more kick and snare parts second time around.  Then it is easier to add all the parts into the one clip.  Same for piano or bass parts etc.  You might only get part of the piano part the first time around and want to complete the part the second time around.  Especially if you are not a great keyboard player but want to create an interesting or slightly hard part in stages or cycles in the loop.  All in real time of course. eg with feel etc..
 
It is not hard either to expand pitches onto separate tracks in Studio One either.  So we can just as easily put all the stuff into one clip, get it right and then expand it out onto separate tracks for individual processing etc just as easy as you guys can merge clips.
 
Sounds more sensible to me.  Merge first then split out later if you really need to.  All I know is that merging stuff into clip certainly works for me much better as it does many others in most DAW's.  What I found though that was real revelation for me was the ability to jump midi tracks on the fly and add parts in here and there over a range of instruments.  Sonar simply cannot do this at all.  I know not everyone does this either but I have found it quite useful at times.  You can even switch input quantizing on and off as required too as well go in and out of record for rehearsal reasons all while looping and never stopping.
 
We can also switch the takes to layers option on and generate clips for each pass too just as you guys are doing now.  Which of course is excellent for doing say a solo over a section and then comp later etc..Which of course you also may need to do.
 
Like I said for some this is revelation.  This and other reasons such as excellent timing are the main reasons why I actually left Sonar and went to another DAW.  So for some it can be serious show stopper.  It just depends on your workflow I guess and how important some things are for you in terms of how you might build up midi parts.

brundlefly
I hear what you're saying, James, but to address noob confusion, the 'merge; feature would also need to be enabled by default. That would be a non-starter for me.
 
I'm already mildly annoyed that the new Note Chase feature is enabled by default. I have only a select few projects that can really benefit from this, and a lot of my piano-based projects sound funky when playing short snippets while editing. Retriggering MIDI is not the same as restarting playback of recorded/frozen audio.
 
Anyway, no big deal either way on the 'merge' feature. My comment about the necessity being 'overblown' is just a response  to hyperbolic wording like "ridiculous", "essential", "shocked", "baffled". At most I would give this omission "surprising" and "disappointing". 

In Studio One 3 and in Cubase Pro 9,  you have the ability to create templates.  In that template,  you can set the default for how you want to work.  If you want your midi or audio tracks to record with take lanes on,  you can do so.  You can also set it up so that the default is no take lanes at all.  It's really up to you,  but the important thing is,  you do have a choice.  You are able to work in a fashion that you choose.  You're not forced to change your workflow.
 
I've been a Cakewalk user and a member of this forum since 2004.  I've owned a lot of Cakewalk products over the years.  I started out with Kinetic and then Home Studio XL 2004.  Since then I've owned Sonar 4 PE, 5 PE, 6 PE, and 8 PE.  I've also owned the Project 5 1 & 2. None of those products had take lanes or comping.  That's why I found it "ridiculous" that the old workflow has been abandoned.  I think it's "essential" that there be an option to turn take lanes off.  When I first bought Sonar X3, I was "shocked" and "baffled"  that there was no way to turn off take lanes.  Now in 2017,  after owning Sonar Platinum for two years,  I find the fact that you still can't turn take lanes off both "surprising" and "disappointing". 
 

Jeff Evans
Like I said for some this is revelation.  This and other reasons such as excellent timing are the main reasons why I actually left Sonar and went to another DAW.  So for some it can be serious show stopper.  It just depends on your workflow I guess and how important some things are for you in terms of how you might build up midi parts.

 
I agree 100%.  For someone who is in the market for a DAW,  I think it can definitely be a show stopper simply because you don't have the option to work either way.
 

kb420
I've owned a lot of Cakewalk products over the years.  I started out with Kinetic and then Home Studio XL 2004.  Since then I've owned Sonar 4 PE, 5 PE, 6 PE, and 8 PE.  I've also owned the Project 5 1 & 2. None of those products had take lanes or comping.  That's why I found it "ridiculous" that the old workflow has been abandoned.  I think it's "essential" that there be an option to turn take lanes off.  When I first bought Sonar X3, I was "shocked" and "baffled"  that there was no way to turn off take lanes.  Now in 2017,  after owning Sonar Platinum for two years,  I find the fact that you still can't turn take lanes off both "surprising" and "disappointing". 

I started with Cakewalk 2.0 for DOS, and have not really had to change my workflow. If you look at my pre-layers projects, youll find drum parts and other layered parts on separate tracks. Layers/lanes just made this more manageable. 

I started with Sonar X1, then Studio One V1, then Sonar X1, then Studio One V1, then Cubase Elements, then Reaper, then Sonar X2, then. . . .
 
Number of times switching DAWs = At least a dozen
 
Years = 5
 
Number of songs actually published from a DAW = 0 
 
Damn I have trouble committing.  It's too much fun playing and learning new toys! 
 
That's why I settled on Sonar Platinum and Komplete 10.  I made a rule, no switching, no more VST's.  Force myself to actually finish songs.  So far it's been pretty helpful. 
 
But it's still soooooooooooooo tempting to jump around.

rlared
That's why I settled on Sonar Platinum and Komplete 10.  I made a rule, no switching, no more VST's.

Good plan. The high cost of recording, synthesis and FX processing hardware used to enforce this limitation automatically. The relatively low cost of DAWs and plugins makes it too easy to get side-tracked acquiring and learning to use new toys (and obsessing over their various shortcomings and defects) instead of making music.

Yeah between Sonar Platinum, Komplete 10, and having a Korg Kronos. . . I literally have enough to learn for years as-is.  There is absolutely nothing that I can't accomplish with what I have. 
 
I actually consciously decided to not re-install most of the Sonar included synths, Rapture Pro, Hybrid 3, Xpand!2, Z3TA2+, and a bunch of effects that I got for free like the Time and Tone Bundle just because it's too many synths and effects already!
 
Still I am constantly reading Sonar, KVR, Reaper forums. 
 
But honestly, as long as I'm enjoying myself, that's all that matters in the end.  The fun is the journey, right?   (DE NILE, it's not just a river in Egypt baby. . . )

After a very long time of giving Sonar the middle finger... I eventually decided to try the demo because of the very nice tungsten theme. I vowed to never buy another CW product. X3 producer was to be the finale. This was due to years of frustration of cakewalk refusing to add the midi overdub recording option, as well as bugs galore!  Seems to me, they treated midi the same as audio in the early days of the app and wanted to stay the odd balls of the industry ever since. 
 
CW sees the feature as trivial, so they simply haven't bothered. If they can add comping and incorporate a GUI editor as well as other features that may rarely get used, then midi overdub should be child's play.
 
Any who... I decided to get the artist version instead of the flagship.The program has been very solid so far. This is the best experience I've ever had with Sonar!
 
FYI: With my typical rant out of the way.... I discovered a way that makes bouncing to clips less cumbersome. At some point CW added bounce to clips to the keybindings option. I set mine up to use the letter O. This makes recording midi less of a pita and has made a dramatic difference! There's no reason the bakers can't write a script to automate the process or create a shortcut key that selects all stacked clips and bounces. No need to do any major rewrite of code to incorporate something so simple!
 
 
 

The next update is suppose to address comping and take lanes. I'm hoping that they spend some time on these midi issues too.