• SONAR
  • Distortion when recording in CbB - Solved !!! I hope....
2018/08/26 04:10:01
MacFurse
I've just found out that nearly everything I've recorded since moving to CbB has some distortion. I'm in the final tracking stage for 12 songs for someone's album. By that I mean all drums, bass, most guitars are done, as are the first vocal tracking, which I use to give back to the client to go home and practice with, before bringing them back for the main vocal tracking. While they are doing that, I continue working on all the solo's, extra guitars, keys, intro's, outro's etc. I had done the first stage for all songs, bar two, in platinum, before moving over to CbB about 4 weeks ago. Apart from a number of smaller issues I put in a post about 5 days ago, everything was going OK, except I finally noticed while trying to cut up some electric guitar parts, that there was an audible distortion. I spent a morning changing amps, mikes, cables, reinstalling drivers, changed interfaces, in short, everything I could think of. I never suspected the software. So I started a new project and did some tests. Perfect. So much so, I realised that all my acoustic guitar parts previously done, also were also not right. Hard to get that perspective when everything you did sort of sounds the same. I had problems when cutting up my bass tracks in that I was eq'ing things differently, wondering what I had done while recording to make such a difference. Only now has the penny dropped. Everything tracked over the last 4 weeks, either direct in, or using mikes, has a level of distortion and/or frequency change. I've just finished a number of tests within CbB on current projects, new projects, and also within Platinum with the following results.
 
CbB 
1. while working within a project that has numerous plugs, sends, everything in distorts.
2. turn off all FX, no distortion, but not a really perfect recording. Hard to tell, but just not quite right, and shows up in the spectrum analyser as slightly different in frequency representation.
3. new project with nothing, just the single tracked acoustic guitar. Perfect in all respects.
 
Platinum.
1. track within a project with heaving tracks, plugs, sends, etc, as above, perfect.
 
I've gone through all settings between both, and they are the same. I'm pretty unhappy right now. This has just cost me not only a lot of time, but the inspiration that comes when tracking things like solo's. It's just not that easy to redo some of this stuff when the time, and the attitude, has changed. Plus a further delay to the project completion time.
 
Has anyone got any thoughts on this as to what may be happening? I'd suspect my PC, but everything else is running OK, plus I can track perfectly in everything except a busy CbB project. I run a lot of instances of Izotope's Neutron2 and Ozone, but again, it works OK in platinum. I run numerous drives,  but the main ones for Cake are 2 x 250gb SSD's, both just over half full. I moved a lot of older projects off the drives wondering if this was partly responsible, but it made no difference.
 
This could be a turning point for me. Some of the issues with Cake over the last 2 years have been too serious, but this issue is probably as bad as it gets IMO.
 
Any help would be appreciated. thanks Dave.
2018/08/26 15:33:54
GaryMedia
This is by far the most intriguing problem report I've seen in a long time.  So let's dig in:
"turn off all FX, no distortion, but not a really perfect recording. Hard to tell, but just not quite right, and shows up in the spectrum analyser as slightly different in frequency representation." 
 
The first setting item that occurs to me is to see if the 'Remove DC Offset During Record' checkbox is set differently in Platinum vs CbB.  The first test that occurs to me is to generate a sine wave in software as a wave file, import it into an empty CbB project and check the spectrum analyzer with FX engaged/bypassed. 
 
That's enough for now, and it may trigger other community members to offer insights and diagnostic approaches.  If you need a sine wave file, let me know.
2018/08/26 16:11:21
Zargg
Hi. My 1st thought (besides Remove DC Offset During Record) when you say it doesn't distort without plugins is that a plugin is overloading, producing distortion.
Others may know better.
All the best.
2018/08/26 17:58:40
sock monkey
It's a general rule of thumb to never change your set up in the middle of a recording project just for these reasons. Who knows what is different, but between computers and software and audio drivers there's way to many variables so Why not carry on with your original set up. 
2018/08/27 03:33:21
MacFurse
thanks guys. I've gone back through settings, and everything's set the same. Great idea with the audio check GaryMedia. I will do that this afternoon. At least that will tell me if when I think I'm right, I'm right !!
 
@ Zargg. thanks. I'm not recording using anything in the path, other than what I might use externally via mike, like a guitar amp. But everything that's gone wrong is just direct in, electric guitar, bass guitar, acoustic guitar etc, plugged straight into my 18i20, with nothing either inserted or turned on, on the track. I assume that I've simply got too many plugs on other completed tracks and on the master, and it's effecting the performance of the CPU or disk's, but why it doesn't have any effect in Platinum has me stumped. I've worked this way for some time, my projects are never huge and very little midi, usually only AD2 and some keys. I like to build the sound and keep things headed towards the mix as I work. Maybe I need to change and work more simply until the mixing stage, but I've had no problems until now.
 
I hear you sock monkey. I moved over because I wanted to stay current and because I'm starting another new client next week. I just thought if I don't make the move soon, I never will, as new projects keep coming in.
 
I can get around this, but I'm shattered at what I have to re-do. I need to make certain this never happens again. The audio test is a great way to look into this and get some confidence. Thanks. I'll be back soon. cheers.. Dave
2018/08/27 07:14:22
MacFurse
Im not seeing or hearing anything with a 1k tone in. I've only got it miked up from my phone, so getting some harmonics at 2k and 4k, but nothing out of the ordinary. I've made some drastic changes to my drives, removing most of what is not current, cleaned up the disks etc, so maybe that's had some effect. I will get out some guitars soon and trial with those. I couldn't stop it up until yesterday, now it seems ok again . I will keep going at this and try to find an answer.
2018/08/27 18:49:24
bdickens
That DC offset thing caused me no small amount of consternation a couple of months ago. I have no idea how it got checked, but it did. Killed a whole day.
2018/08/28 01:14:45
sock monkey
A weird one for sure. You have double the computer I have I really don't think that would be it. Doesn't hurt to be recording to a nice clean drive with lot's of room. I had weirdness in the past when my drive was getting full. Drives are so cheap now I keep a 240 SSD just for working with Sonar. It's only got about 40 GB on it. But that would not explain your difference between the 2 DAW's. CbB is 98% Splat. 
I find opening my old X3 Projects everything works perfect in CbB. Only weirdness is screen sets ( lenses?)  are always wrong. If anything I get way better performance now, things seems faster. 
2018/08/28 07:35:15
MacFurse
sock monkey
. I had weirdness in the past when my drive was getting full. Drives are so cheap now I keep a 240 SSD just for working with Sonar.




I have too sock monkey, losing some work a few years back when my main drive hit about 80pcnt. I've put 2 x 250gb SSD's in just for windows and Sonar, but they did get up to around 65 and 75 pcnt full, so maybe. A friend has told me that he had something similar and it was his interface to USB connection, fixing it by putting in a USB isolation device. So I've ordered one of those, plus I will go home tonight and simply try a different cable. But the problem appears to be gone, so I suspect either a faulty or overloaded SSD, but it doesn't explain everything.
 
I've just ordered a 1tb SSD to replace the 250's, and will run everything from one drive. I'm hoping this will fix it. Then a new build first thing next year. I want to change to M.2 SSD's, but that means a new motherboard, CPU and RAM. For now, I'm hoping I'm on top of this.
2018/08/28 12:28:00
GaryMedia
I seriously doubt that such a subtle data integrity problem with an SSD or HDD would arise because it's filling. The same operating system and hardware features that use the CRC and ECC as implemented for word processing documents and spreadsheets, is also in the chain for opening/closing and managing wave files. 
 
There is a sort of  'a-priori' data coming off of the converter on the way into the computer; there's no way to say whether or not that 3-byte sample has the right or wrong value, and we have to simply trust that the converter has done its job properly.  From that point onward, the data integrity mechanisms for the computer are working at every level of handoff between the I/O device, the CPU, registers, RAM, etc.  A problem anywhere in that group of functions will not present itself in a way that's confined to just the music.  
 
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