rspagnuolo

Klaus
SONAR's RMS level meters show -3 dB at full scale.
 
Other programms (DAWs or audio interface software and their meters) could be set to show RMS +3 dB, so that a full scale level would be identical for Peak and RMS at 0 dBFS.
 
Not a problem at all, just keep it in mind if you compare RMS levels between DAWs and see a difference.
 
 

Hi All!
 
Am I the OP? (LOL!)
 
(I am not referring to the Panning Laws.)
 
If I understand the post I am quoting, I could mix to -9 dB peak in Sonar and another - using the AES calibration, for example, a mastering engineer, could see my peak as -6 dB (if his DAW follows the AES calibration rules).
Would the same hold for RMS values?
 
Thank you for your help.
 
Ray (aka Oluon)

If you mean "-9 dB peak" vs. "-6 dB peak" = RMS values then yes, a DAW, a meter plug-in or other software which uses the AES calibration would show an RMS value 3 dB higher than SONAR.
 
But honestly, I wouldn't worry about it.
Leaving sufficient headroom when delivering your mixes to a mastering engineer is more important than matching RMS levels, IMO.
 

To Klaus, et al,
 
Thanks for all the help.
We can call this issue solved.
 
Can I do it, or is someone else in charge of that?
 
Ray (aka Oluon)

just edit your original (first) post and put 'solved' or whatever in the title

Klaus
SONAR's RMS level meters show -3 dB at full scale.
 
Other programms (DAWs or audio interface software and their meters) could be set to show RMS +3 dB, so that a full scale level would be identical for Peak and RMS at 0 dBFS.
 
Not a problem at all, just keep it in mind if you compare RMS levels between DAWs and see a difference.
 

SONAR's RMS level meters show -3 dB at full scale for a sine wave with a peak level of 0dBFS. Some other DAWs show 0 dB RMS for a 0 dBFS peak sine wave.
 
Sonar is doing it the mathematically correct way based on the definition of what "RMS" means and the way "RMS" is used throughout the universe apart from audio.
 
Period.
 
Some other folks in the audio world had the (not so) bright idea of redefining "RMS" in the audio world so that a sine wave have the same peak and RMS reading, but still calling it "RMS". I suspect this was because then you could calibrate stuff throughout your setup with a sine wave and not have to worry whether a given meter was showing peak or "RMS"
 
Which would have been fine, but they should have called that "RMS+3" or "RMS3" or something that wouldn't lead to multiple "standards" and confuse people by having the same term being defined differently in a subset of DAWs vs. everywhere else.
 
 

Despite Sonar showing rms as being -3db down compared to peak, this is NOT the standard though. Every other DAW out there shows the rms value as being the very top of the sinewave.  It is an agreed standard now and for some reason Sonar is the only DAW that does not comply.
 
Metering is not directly related to the electrical rms being 3 db down from peak value like it is in the world of electrical engineering.  In my opinion Sonar should change this and match all the others.
 
It does not matter though because the rms metering in Sonar is not that helpful, it is too low on the scale anyway plus the fact it shows up 3 db lower puts it even lower on the scale.
 
If you are serious about rms metering you need a proper VU meter plugin (eg Klanghelm) and then you will find they are reading correctly anyway. eg top of the sinewave peak is the value shown.

Hi Jeff, Drew and The Grim,
 
Thank you for your posts. (Jeff: I use the Klanghelm VU meter.)
 
The info is very helpful.
 
Thanks,
Ray (aka Oluon)

Jeff Evans
Despite Sonar showing rms as being -3db down compared to peak, this is NOT the standard though. Every other DAW out there shows the rms value as being the very top of the sinewave.  It is an agreed standard now and for some reason Sonar is the only DAW that does not comply.
 
Metering is not directly related to the electrical rms being 3 db down from peak value like it is in the world of electrical engineering.  In my opinion Sonar should change this and match all the others.

Audio metering is absolutely directly related to all the other definitions - what the other DAW vendors do is just compute the actual RMS like Sonar and then add 3dB to it. So what they're displaying isn't "RMS", it's "RMS +3dB".
 
If Cakewalk wants to add an "RMS+3dB" display option, that would be great - as long as they don't call it "RMS".

Yes there is confusion surrounding this.  As I have said Sonar is technically correct in terms of where it shows rms levels.  To add to the confusion too if you use a square wave as the test signal the rms level in Sonar (and all other DAW's) will be 3 dB higher as well.
 
BUT what most other DAW's are doing are showing the rms level as being the very peak of a sinewave which is sort of incorrect in a way but it is what is happening here.  For example in say Studio One (and most other DAW's) if you measure the level of a sine wave it will show the rms level as being the very peak of that wave.
eg as Drew puts it rms + 3 dB.
 
Even if you buy a VU VST such as the Klanghelm (and all the others too) it will also rms level as being the very peak of the sinewave. (By the way this peak level is nothing to with very short transient peaks either, it is peak level for a continuous sinewave eg the very top of that wave)
 
That is what you have to get used to and it is the way it is eg the agreed standard now. 
 
The AES17 standard gets into all this but it is quite a lot of heavy reading.

By the way, in case you didn't know, there is an update for the Klanghelm VUMT vu meter, and a deluxe version is now available. 
 
http://klanghelm.com/contents/products/VUMT/VUMT.php
 
Peace,
Mike

Thanks for that.  I had no idea that the VUMT had been updated.  Even updating to V2 from the standard version without deluxe is pretty nice. The extra skins are welcome and also the fact you can resize the GUI is also excellent. The deluxe version looks cool too. Might upgrade it is pretty cheap.
 
Deluxe certainly offers some extra nice features as well.  And it is cheaper again if you are an existing VUMT user.
 
The Deluxe version offers a single band dynamic EQ which is pretty cool.  What often happens when you put a VU meter over a whole mix say is you might see some wild swinging well over 0 dB VU at various times.  What this is telling you often is there might be one rogue track/channel that has got some wild levels going on and once you mute it then the mix VU just settles down to a beautiful ballistic just peaking 0 dB VU all the time.  So you know that you have isolated it down to just that right track.
 
What should happen next is the track is fixed using a plugin/s and then when it is returned to the mix the track becomes audible again but the wild swinging has gone away.
 
The deluxe version of VUMT now incorporates this repair option if you like within the VU meter itself   (eg it becomes an insert effect)  so this dynamic EQ can be setup around the trouble frequency range and with care in setting it can tame any rogue level changes in that area.  Very cool indeed.  Not to mention more metering options and other things as well.
 
I have not got deluxe yet but I will get it and test out how effective this dynamic EQ actually is.