• SONAR
  • Plea of Support to all users of sonar. (p.5)
2016/10/05 18:45:41
Grave Protocol
I don't need a staff view for what I do...I think what exists right now in Sonar is sufficient for what I might do with a staff view at any point if I wanted to communicate with another instrument player that works that way.  In general, I really like what Sonar focuses on when in development - which is to say;
 
Waves' plugins cost a fortune, but I bought 'em.  Izotope 7 is SWEET and I bought that.  If I really needed super kick-ass staff view functionality, I could justify spending a couple hundred dollars on a program that does that REALLY well. 
I prefer to keep developing what Sonar does really well.  That is just my one penny :)
2016/10/05 20:49:15
rwheeler
I use the staff view to help me do simple note entry and to help me learn about music. I do agree that restoring some of the earlier functionality (dedicated controls) would be useful. Would it make sense to have some development resources focused sometime in the next year on making it easier to connect Sonar to external notation products? I have seen comments that using Rewire can be daunting, but I haven't explored that in detail myself.
2016/10/05 22:22:54
Chandler
As I requested before I think a good solution would be to integrate a 3rd party notation program. Overture 5 isn't quite ready, but when it is I hope Cakewalk talks to the developer and a deal can be worked out where code is shared and it becomes easy to integrate Ov5 into Sonar.
2016/10/05 22:48:04
Kamikaze
When you click on Products > Sonar The first Graphic is titled compose. And contains Staff View. Click on Features and at the top of the page is Staff View
"Compose!
Score your music with SONAR’s integrated staff view - ideal for songwriters and composers"
 
Yet it's had minimal fixes in the last decade and no improvements. I don't even think their has evr been a decent video tutorial made on how to use it.
 
I'm in the 'Make it better' camp, not the 'I want to replace Sibelius'.
 
When I started with Cakewalk, I couldn't read music, never thought my musical path would have had me learning Flute and Sax, I was into Electronic music, so my fairly recent move into both Bass and Guitars has surprised me.   My primary midi input instrument is the WX5 (midi sax).
 
In learning the flute, I would find sheet music to learn songs I liked. So many times I sat down to input the music onto staff view to help me learn the phrasing, and assure myself it was the right note. I used to have a baritone sax as well, so I had instruments in C (Flute), G (Alto Flute) Bb (Soprano) and Eb (baritone). So with the majority of sheet music in C, I had to learn to transpose, so being able to input sheet music into Sonar would have been as very helpful for me. So many times I just felt like I wasted most of the day banging my head against the wall. It's far from intuitive and WTF things happen all the times that undermine your confidence.
 
The sheet music would range from things like Chill Peppers to Al Green to Miles. Many of the books were aimed at guitarists, who generally just need the tabs they contained. But these books I would have thought would have been useful, for those who wanted to input the melody so they could play the chords along, make covers, and have something to learn with.
 
If you start learning music theory, then learning to to understand the staff is really useful, partly because so many youtube videos will be explained from a staff point of veiw. Seeing how harmonies stack up is much clearer than piano roll.
 
So from a learning point of view, and developing as a musician, staff view could be abetter asset with some time put into it.
 
We don't know the percentage of musicians that sight read, but for those that do, and grew up with a school education on playing an instrument, then for those it should be developed. Why should they initially struggle with Piano Role view because so many are guitarists with no care for understanding how to read a staff, when the staff IS and HAS been the standard of communicating music to musicians. If they came here and said 'Hey, I've been playing violin since I was seven and am thinking about using SONAR for creating some compositions, is SONAR and good choice for me?' I think there would be a fair amount of posts suggesting that due to the neglect of staff view, that other options would be advised.
 
When I watch technique videos from classically trained musicians it's often, a Mac in the background. This is the new market for SONAR, so why should they choose SONAR of ProTools or LOGIC?
 
With the rise of computing power an the ability of sample libraries to replicate orchestras, it seems more and more people are getting into make 'Film' scores. Being able to scetch out the idea in staff view for these types of instruments seems the obvious choice, and learn how it works over a piano roll.  A poster once wrote a case for staff view saying it's easier to see where instruments clash when you have the staff in front of you, or where the gaps are. I won't be able to replicate his argument but it was extensive, and eye opening.
 
In researching sample libraries I often see the argument that the key to making a bunch of sampled instruments sound real is having a real one amongst them. Seems rock guys (Sonars base group I guess) like have a string quartet playing a section. Well, if you composed something for a single player or a group of them to play, you'd want a staff print out. Same for Horn sections too.
 
It's seems a very myopic argument to think because you don't need it now, then it not best for you or SONAR in to at least spend a little time on it. A percentage of time that reflects the percentage of users.
 
I don't use live drums, I didn't need drum replacer, hwat percentage of users do? Theme Editor is just for Platinum users, whats the percentage of platinum users? What percentage of users are regularly using Vocal Sync?
 
The fact it's in SONAR, cakewalk use it as a selling point, there IS a percentage of users that do sight read or see the benefit of staff view, that there has been long standing pleas for some kind of development over and over again for something that has has next to nothing for over a decade, should be enough to give it some love.
 
And if you can't sight read, and don't understand a staff, then maybe the argument is that maybe you should before arguing against the standards in music communications that is frankly here to to stay. You never know when maybe you'll get an urge to pick up a trumpet, cello etc  to expand you musical vocabulary.
2016/10/05 23:34:08
timidi
I'm in the 'don't need/want' camp.
I do understand and respect that an actual , you know, "musician" would want notation though. 
On one hand it does seem silly that a major (I think Sonar is major)  music program would not have it. On the other, if I was into that way of producing music, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't rely on a little editing window in Sonar to get the job done. I'd get a full fledge program that does it. 
 
There's always PT also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf9JDgyGwY8
 
2016/10/05 23:45:01
Kev999
Although I only use Staff View in a minority of my projects, I would hate not to have it available. SV can be better than Piano Roll View in some situations. Often it is helpful to be able to view several midi tracks and see them separated out. SV can do this for you, as it displays each individual instrument on separate staves. If you are working on an arrangement that involves different instruments playing unison notes or overlapping phrases, PRV can look too cluttered and confusing, whereas SV can show you more clearly what you need to see. Displaying the two views side by side can be useful too, with PRV zoomed in for detailed edited while SV helps you keep track of where you are without needing to keep zooming in and out in PRV.
 
I urge those who think that SV is not for them to try using it. It's just another tool that anyone can use. Stop thinking of it as belonging to some elite minority.
2016/10/06 01:54:39
mettelus
Hammerhole
Waves' plugins cost a fortune, but I bought 'em.  Izotope 7 is SWEET and I bought that.  If I really needed super kick-ass staff view functionality, I could justify spending a couple hundred dollars on a program that does that REALLY well. 


This is the crux for me as well. When a gap exists that affects you deeply, a 3rd party solution may be a wise choice. Even in the interest of time, "now" almost always trumps "someday."
2016/10/06 09:04:31
Brando
Kev999
Although I only use Staff View in a minority of my projects, I would hate not to have it available. SV can be better than Piano Roll View in some situations. Often it is helpful to be able to view several midi tracks and see them separated out. SV can do this for you, as it displays each individual instrument on separate staves. If you are working on an arrangement that involves different instruments playing unison notes or overlapping phrases, PRV can look too cluttered and confusing, whereas SV can show you more clearly what you need to see. Displaying the two views side by side can be useful too, with PRV zoomed in for detailed edited while SV helps you keep track of where you are without needing to keep zooming in and out in PRV.
 
I urge those who think that SV is not for them to try using it. It's just another tool that anyone can use. Stop thinking of it as belonging to some elite minority.

+1
I own several notation programs (and cartloads of audio plugins and soft synths) and invested several hundred dollars (thousands if you include plugs, vsti's and DAWS) in doing so. I also bought Sonar's lifetime updates. My investment in trying to find a workable staff view in SONAR includes the latest Notion 6 with Rewire Midi.
In the end, the notation "plug in solution" being touted by so many is not an effective/workable one, compared to using the built in Staff View for EDITING. Most/many users are only asking for restoration of former funationality and fixes to remaining bugs in an EXISTING feature of Sonar.

I personally would vote AGAINST the development of full-blown (Sibeius-like) notation within the Sonar core application.
For the record the implication that staff view users are just too cheap to buy the necessary 3rd party "plugin" is insulting. There is no plugin option.
2016/10/06 09:56:45
Kamikaze
Cakewalk never advertised or came with waves plug ins. It's had staff view for all of its existence, and most of it's previous incarnation. But no development for for over ten years and a few fixes. I have a lifetime membership, I expect all to be enhanced along the way. It doesn't need to replace Sibelius but it should be enhanced/improved along the way.
 
I don't think Event List has had any changes either, but I don't recall many demands for it, Staff View has had demands, and protest and pleas and lost users over it's neglect.
 
Staff veiw is is fully integrated into the midi system of SONAR, even Melodynes integration doesn't come close. They sell it as a complete daw I expect them to maintain it as such.
 
I have no need for drum re placer, but I wouldn't protest about request for it being developed further. It's now part of Sonar and should be treated just the same. I can understand not having an interest in an aspect of the program, but objecting to development of a fundamental part of it because you have no need, is just plain selfish.  
 
Everything should be maintained and enhanced along the way. I bought the whole package (waves not included)
 
2016/10/06 11:30:23
trtzbass
I'm just going to throw it out there:
these guys: http://www.fortenotation.com/en/ are coming up with quite a nice product which is still pretty young by today's standards (even tho I seem to remember that Forte already was a name in the game). It would be safe to say that they are looking to gain traction and popularity. Maybe the Cakewalk guys can have a word with them?
Also, I see many people saying that they don't need the staff view and feel they are the majority. That is absolutely true, but wouldn't it be because throughout the years Sonar's staff facilities have built a reputation of mediocrity? That way all those who needed to choose a DAW that integrated traditional music writing, had to choose something else by default. So of course they are not here! Wouldn't it be nice to offer them a valid alternative? I know I had to cave in and buy Cubase, and I LOVE Sonar (and dislike Cubase).
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