I was being sarcastic. The point that Mike was making is the right one. Setting gain (trim) on the channel for volume is not what the trim knob is for. Use the faders that is what they are for. If you can't get a good level with the faders then use the trim to make up the difference.

John


I was being sarcastic. The point that Mike was making is the right one. Setting gain (trim) on the channel for volume is not what the trim knob is for. Use the faders that is what they are for. If you can't get a good level with the faders then use the trim to make up the difference.

I guess I misunderstood the main post :-) I believed his tracks were recorded hot around -0.2dB which would have ment he have probably already had clipped. And I did not mean to trim for volume. I ment to trim to not clip inputs on plugins (not all plugins have input trim) or to get a sain level before start mixing with the faders. Just in case he was lost. But I guess it is me who is lost :-)
Sending a track out to some hardware it would be important knowing the right signal level, 0VU could e.g. be anything from -12dB to -20dB depending on the hardware.

I don't know where you might have gotten the idea he recorded hot. He said none of his tracks were clipping. It was the buss that was clipping.

John


I don't know where you might have gotten the idea he recorded hot. He said none of his tracks were clipping. It was the buss that was clipping.

Exactly, as I said, I misread the first post :-)

The OP doesn't say what levels the recorded tracks come in at (or maybe I missed it).  If the meter on a track is showing -0.2 dB with trim and fader at 0.0 that's too strong.  But maybe he's got the fader set below 0.0...?

The way I would say to think of the trim vs. faders is you use the trim to set up to do a mix, like setting a table before you eat.  Pre-mix you would set trims so the signals are optimal for each track - remember faders have greater resolution closer to 0.0 dB so you want to be in upper segment for greatest fine tune control - other things you do before starting a mix would be trimming the silence away form clips, basic housekeeping stuff like that, setting up send fx etc.

Then when you mix, you mix for expressiveness, including automation moves.   The control surfaces are intended to use for mixing.  Although with the Mackie you could I think assign an assignable knob for trim but since this parameter doesn't need to be "ridden" there's not much point really.

In a perfect world if your tracks all get captured at perfect gain levels than you wouldn't need trim but rarely does this happen, usually ther are at least small adjustments to give an optimal starting point.

Hey Jason,

This is a highly subjective area!

Have you ever played your home music collection on shuffle and realised how the volume on some of the tracks varied drastically from the others, leaving you to constantly adjust the volume knob on your hardware.

To get past this nuance when mixing and mastering it's good to create reference tracks. This is made up of 20-30sec samples of songs you like that are the closest to whatever style your recording in sonar and put them on one track. When trying to adjust for levels I usually unmute this track to get a reference.

Hope this helps

Rodders

Wrang was on the right track.  If you want to go to the ''next level" (ha!) in your mixes I would strongly suggest that you record in 24-bit and keep the recording input levels much lower. Basically aim keep the track meter filled up at around 50%, and allow the peaks to do whatever they wish...and completely out of red zone.  I could have used more technical language to describe this, but I think you get the gist. 

Everyone who has actually tried this approach has reported back how much more open sounding their final mixes sound.   

Give it a try on your next song and give us a shout back.

J

"Everyone who has actually tried this approach has reported back how much more open sounding their final mixes sound."

Who is "Everyone"?


re: " I could have used more technical language to describe this"

Thanks for refraining... I find it nauseating to see something so simple turned into something that seems complicated.

No clipping in the mix routing.... NO PLACE.... mix to taste.

Everything else is just a bunch of baloney.

all the best,
mike

Wrang was on the right track

How? By leaving his faders at unity and adjusting the trims?  Pardon me but that is not mixing. Also are you saying to record your tracks at 50% of full scale? Is this what you are saying? Because if you are that is not very good advice. We are talking about recording and mixing not mastering. Jonas I have tons of respect for you and the advice you have given this forum through the years but here you are going against all that makes any sense.  No one BTW is talking about running into the red either.  -6dB as a rough point to have you levels at for recording is plenty for headroom and keeping out of the red.  But this all depends on what is being recorded and how.

John, I guess you misunderstood me. I ment he could use the trims to get a good starting point if tracks are very hot or in very different levels. Then start using the faders and mix like we are supposed to.
Not to be rude, but have a look at the long 80 page tread I link to in a post above.

<Mike> There is enough headroom inside the DAW (64-bit) to peak tracks without clipping. But of course it is a bad habit, and some plugins may not handle it very well or not at all. If you take a 0dBFS sine wave on a track, insert a gain plugin pushing it up with e.g. +6dB and bussing it to another track with a gain plugin pushing it down on that track by -6dB, then it should NULL and the sine wave will be just fine.
Edit: The only DAW that does not handle this very well is Pro Tools HD because of some 48-bit limit in hardware/TDM ... or something.