j boy

John

However I do have a problem with routinely adjusting trim on a DAW. 

Sorry, John, but that's just a rather bizarre point of view.

  Bizarre? How?  Did you read the whole post?

John

j boy

John

However I do have a problem with routinely adjusting trim on a DAW. 

Sorry, John, but that's just a rather bizarre point of view.

Bizarre? How?  Did you read the whole post?

Well I don't disagree with much of what you've said in the thread, and sorry if it came out sounding snarky, but - I just find this one statement to be very binary (always/never, works/doesn't work).  Mixing for me is all about finding sweet spots and if grabbing the trim knob in the DAW and twisting it makes something sound better than I have no reason not to twist it.  When I mix, all options are on the table, and I wouldn't want to unnecessarily limit myself.
 
That's all.  If your aversion to using trim works for you then no one can deny that, nor would I care to.  More to the point of advice going out to n00bs... "don't fear the trim".

First I would like to apologize for bumping/digging up such an old thread.
Secondly, this is something I have been fighting with as of late.
I agree with John on this thread as Gain is not something that should be used to simply set levels.
The problem I am having now is my track positions at mix-down are very low in order to keep my master bus between -6 and -9db.
 
I've always used the gain knob to adjust levels before hitting the plug ins (IE-slamming a compressor)
I am sure something of my issue has to do with gain staging, maybe I am recording to hot, but I don't think so.
My recording levels are optimal but not hot. ever. However when it comes time to mix 30+ tracks, my fader are positioned around -16 to -24db. which by looking at it, seems dramatically low.
However this is where I need to have them in order to keep my master bus in check.
Because I never move my master bus. It is always kept at 0db.
 
Any opinions ?

If I may ask for some clarity Chuck,
when you are gain staging what is your process? Are all your faders at 0db when setting up your gain staging? and what level are you shooting for when adjusting  your gain? The answers to this can better help to possibly give you some help.

KingsMix
If I may ask for some clarity Chuck,
when you are gain staging what is your process? Are all your faders at 0db when setting up your gain staging? and what level are you shooting for when adjusting  your gain? The answers to this can better help to possibly give you some help.

It starts out that way (I typically shoot for under that though:-6 to -9db).
But you know the story, once you start adding the sum of 10+ tracks all at 0db, the master bus goes over. Thus every fader has to be pulled down.
if it were 1 track, I wouldn't have a problem.

chuckebaby
First I would like to apologize for bumping/digging up such an old thread.
Secondly, this is something I have been fighting with as of late.
I agree with John on this thread as Gain is not something that should be used to simply set levels.
The problem I am having now is my track positions at mix-down are very low in order to keep my master bus between -6 and -9db.
 
I've always used the gain knob to adjust levels before hitting the plug ins (IE-slamming a compressor)
I am sure something of my issue has to do with gain staging, maybe I am recording to hot, but I don't think so.
My recording levels are optimal but not hot. ever. However when it comes time to mix 30+ tracks, my fader are positioned around -16 to -24db. which by looking at it, seems dramatically low.
However this is where I need to have them in order to keep my master bus in check.
Because I never move my master bus. It is always kept at 0db.
 
Any opinions ?

Most of my final mixes have fader levels down at similar levels chuck, so you're not alone.
 
If you could resist the temptation to add dynamics plugs until tracking was definitely completed then you could at that point use the trims/gains to bring the levels down and you'll gain resolution on your faders by having them closer to 0dB, but I'm never that disciplined.

What I am referring to Chuck, is your gain staging process, which is preferably done at the start of the mix session. Once done at the beginning of the mix session, it (gain staging)can be left alone.
We are not trying to mix with gain staging, just trying to get our levels and faders at an optimal point to start our mix.
Here is an example of how I gain stage , and I'll use an example of a client sending me a mix, which I have no control over what was recorded and how hot or how low they recorded their tracks (given that none are clipping):
You can actually turn your monitors down for this process.
 
1)Pull all your Faders up to 0db including Master Fader. 
 
2)Now play your tracks and go through each track one by one (yes tedious process as another forum member stated in a earlier thread) and preferably go to the loudest part of each track (look at the waveform to save time) and adjust your gain knob for each track(faders still at 0db untouched) so that your peak meter on each track is hitting around -18db to -15db (we are ignoring the Master Fader meter "at this stage" of the process.
 
3) Now that that part is done you can start your mix, it takes some time trial and error to learn where to start a certain instruments  peak at to get used to how and where the sum of your master Fader meter is going to peak when all tracks are in, this part is not exact science due to variations in material from project to project, but you have to get used to having a base instrument to start with. 
So lets say my gain staging that I just described is done and I haven't done any actual mixing yet (only gain staged my project).
I will drop all the Faders except for the Master Fader (at 0db) and start to do a static mix balance. The next step just takes practice, and this is only my particular method, there are many different approaches so i'm just giving you an example. Once I start my static mix, I am make my initial Fader up move  on the kick and try to get that to peak at about -14 / -15db. Now I can ignore my meters for a "little bit" and finish my static mix of my levels. Once I am done with this I start fine tuning and my end result ends up being -6 to -10 at the Master Fader when my mixing is done.
Takes practice and this is only one method, but the important part is the initial gain staging process. Makes things so much smoother and improves the end result.
 
On a side note: If you are recording the material yourself, the optimum process is to initially record your material to hit -18db to -15db.
As far as whats optimal for your plugins, its not about a constant -18 to 15db, once you gain stage properly that is taken care of no matter where you move your Fader to, since you have got your input level optimized.
 
The beauty of the DAW age is that you can experiment (if you are afforded the time).

Regarding 2) above, I would simply play the entire project from beginning to end, then for each track take a gander at the peak level as indicated in the Track Inspector.
 
Use these numbers to determine how much to reduce the gain.
 
No need to do the whole thing one track at a time.

It all depends really. sometimes, on re amped tracks I want the gain hot hitting the VST.
So I cant really turn the gain down on these tracks with out suffering a weak signal hitting the VST.
It is simply in terms of where the gain knob is in Sonars signal chain. im not overloading the VST. im simply running it strong and if you turn down the gain on a clean guitar track that is feeding a VST, for distorted guitars, im sure many of us know what sounds like. it sounds weak.
 
And for those vocal tracks that need more gain to hit the compressor harder because they were recorded a little on the low side, the gain goes up.
I appreciate your advice. I will give it a shot and try playing with the gain a little bit. I just don't like using gain as a means to push my faders higher for no apparent reason other than to just move them closer to -8, exc.
 
Thank you both again. im very grateful for the advise. nothing wrong with my mixes. they sound good.
its just I find my faders are, esthetically look low :-) 

Don't forget, all these VST's & VSTi's have output level controls so you can easily lower these in order to gain more on your faders.