Helpful ReplyMC 5 Quantize whole track

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dlong241950
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2012/07/17 15:14:28 (permalink)

MC 5 Quantize whole track

I have created/entered notes in staff view for a quintet score of winds, and it sounds great.
Except: The flute part/track is a bit off key.
 
Is there any way to quantize a whole track so that I can move UP the pitch of the entire track by a few Hertz (micro frequency)?
 
Thank you for any help.
 
ps. Thanks to those who helped me with recording/playback problems where there were a lot of clicks and pops. I'm using a PC onboard sound chip, and your suggestion to "bounce to track", creating a new audio track, seems to work great. The key is to enter all the notes in staff view, bounce to audio track, then mute the original track. That works so great! Thank you!
 
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Guitarhacker
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/17 15:45:54 (permalink)
quantize is for moving the notes horizontally in the time line to match up with the beat...... 

making a pitch change is a bit different..... and the answer is yes and no. It will depend greatly on the synth you are using. Some synths are tune-able by half steps only.....

Some synths are in fact tune-able by semitones....one hertz at a time. It would be a function in the synth itself if that is possible. 

I have encountered synths that are slightly off key on some notes and it is very irritating. 

Another option for you if the synth is the non-tune-able kind: Bounce the track to audio and use something like Melodyne on the track. With melodyne, you can load the track into melodyne and allow it to auto correct to the closest pitch..... and then you can also tweeze that manually by extremely small  increments to get the pitch perfect.  

What synth are you using to voice the winds? 


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dlong241950
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/18 14:05:04 (permalink)
Guitarhacker

What synth are you using to voice the winds? 
Using florestan_woodwinds.sf2. GREAT sounds, freely available on the web.

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Beagle
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/18 14:21:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
ok, then you are using MIDI.  the way you worded it, Herb was thinking you were talking about audio, which is completely different.

MIDI has notes you enter or record which triggers the sounds you hear, but it's much easier to edit MIDI notes than it is audio.

to edit the pitch of MIDI notes, open the PRV (piano roll view) of the MIDI track you're working on and click on a note and drag it where you want it.  you can edit the pitch or the timing this way.

however, if you want to quantize (timing) you can select several of the notes and use the MIDI FX processing to quantize them to a particular time.  select them, then right click somewhere (not directly on a note) and choose MIDI FX>CAKEWALK>QUANTIZE I think - I don't ever do this so I'm going from rough memory.

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Beagle
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/18 14:22:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
you can also transpose an entire track by chromatic, diatonic or other options.

select the whole track, in the PRV and then righ click and choose the option for TRANSPOSE

you will then have options to choose from on how much to move the notes up or down by.

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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/18 15:12:12 (permalink)
no Beagle... I knew he was talking about midi....   

Quantize is a midi function used to alighn notes horizontally in the time line to a specific beat... but you know what it is.... 

He was talking about adjusting the frequency of a note. Not by half steps but by the semitone as opposed to half steps. Some synths have that ability and many do not....   I want to say Kontakt has it but it is accessed from inside the synth main screen.

So he's using SFZ.... I don't think it has the ability to adjust pitch by hertz ...one at a time....I think it's only half steps musically to a fixed reference. (A-440 most likely) I would have to re-load SFZ to confirm this since I don't have it on my new DAW.... 

Dragging notes in PRV will only land you ON the semi tone..... not somewhere in between which is apparently what he is looking to do on perhaps a few notes that may not have been sampled correctly. 

I should have asked: What version of Music Creator he is using....since MC5 & 6 both have the Cake Sound Center and it has a flute in it if I recall which I have used (I think... unless I'm confusing it with Kontakt) and the notes in it are pretty much dead on pitch. 

I will have to check out the transpose option..... does it allow specific "by hertz" adjustments? 


I suggested melodyne because with it, you could bounce to audio and then "fix" the one or two notes that he says were off ....very easy....or move the entire track by a few hertz...again very easy in melodyne.  Sorry to confuse the issue. 
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2012/07/18 15:13:47

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dlong241950
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/19 17:01:30 (permalink)
I am using MC5 (sorry, thought I said that already)
Apparently MC5 has a built-in dialog screen called rgcaudio sfz+.
Clicking [+] [Instrument Track] [rgcaudio sfz+] brings up the following dialog.
One then clicks [FILE] to get the .sf2 file, and in this case, clicking repeatedly in the program box shows the sound fonts available from the file.
Please notice that there are two "pitch" sliders: one for the low frequency oscillator (mod lfo) and one called "mod eg".
ALSO there is s control in the "Master Selection" box that says "tune".
There doesn't seem to be any help for this dialog, so haven't a clue about how to use it.
Fiddling with the three sliders appears to have no affect on the track or synth.
 
 

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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/19 20:45:20 (permalink)
Pitch and tune might adjust the master tuning, but I have not used this synth so I do not know what the amount of adjustment would be or how to make it apply to the patch you are using. 

Have you tried the Sound center? I think it has flute in it..... 

I am quite busy and do not have a lot of time to play with a synth that I have not used...... maybe Beagle will be along shortly to answer this 

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Beagle
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/19 21:57:03 (permalink)
sorry herb - I didn't read your post correctly.  my bad.

dave - those are for adjusting oscillators, not the full pitch.  try it, you'll see what it does to the sound (and it will do different things to different patches)

if you want to adjust the pitch by something smaller than 1/2 step, then yes, use the slider on the MASTER section for TUNE.  IIRC it will adjust up to 1/2 step up or down, but the further away from center you get, the more artifacts you'll introduce in the sound and the worse it will sound.

but that's exactly what that TUNE slider is for.

if you DO want to change the pitch by 1/2 step or more, tho, don't use the slider, use the MIDI FX like I described above.

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/20 07:51:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
The problem you will have with the master tune is that is does affect the tuning of the entire track.....all the notes will be changed by whatever amount you move that slider. 

So, if I understand correctly, the problem you are having is that only certain notes are out of tune, but the rest are in tune and OK.   Is that correct? 

If so, the problem is in the samples or the patches. They were programmed or recorded (if samples) in a less than ideal manner resulting in slight tuning variations. 

The solution is: 

1 use better samples that are in tune all the way through..... sound center or some other synth with flutes.

2. clone the track..... then move the pitch on the clone to make just those notes in tune.... use envelopes to pull faders down in the original track on those notes and up in the clone track(s) as needed to make the parts play in tune.  Not as hard as it sounds, but it is labor intensive depending on how often that note is played. 

3. Or.....render it to audio. Then use melodyne or another audio pitch correction software to "fix" the bad notes. 



 try the other things first  (1&2) if that doesn't work get a demo version of Melodyne and IIRC it runs as a full version for 10 days. use melodyne to fix it. and bounce it or process audio to remove melodyne FX from the track. 
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2012/07/20 07:54:16

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dlong241950
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/21 14:34:14 (permalink)
Thank you guys. I will look at these options you have suggested.

Guitar Hacker: I have a good detection of pitch. This synth is closer in pitch at lower range than it is in the higher range, where it is painfully noticable. It's not off by a 1/2 step. Maybe 1/8 or 1/16. Just enough to be a distraction.

Will let you all know about my progress on your suggestions. Thanks. again.
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/22 09:26:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
My ears are the same..... I can detect slight pitch variations and it is irritating as you have pointed out. 


If the instrument is a sampled instrument, where it was actually recorded live.....and the synth is playing back those samples...(many of the better sounding synths use this method) it is very possible that the musician was not careful with hand technique or tuning and that simply slipped the notice of anyone there in the studio.  The less expensive and homemade sample libraries do tend to suffer from this issue whereas the more expensive the library, the more likely it was recorded properly with many layers of samples, and tested extensively and properly before it was marketed to the users...us. 

I have used melodyne (not a cheap plug in, but very effective) to fix pitch issues on instrument tracks like you are describing. The cost to value ratio (of buying melodyne)  I guess depends on what you plan to use the tracks for. It is one of my favorite tools to use for vocals and instruments. 


NOTE: It is probably cheaper to buy melodyne than it is to buy a decent sample library of orchestral sounds.  As long as the sample library you now use sounds good, all you need to do is fix the pitch variations.....melodyne does that well. Last time I looked, melodyne was around $200 or so...depending on the version and features, but some of the better medium level sample libraries can easily exceed $500 and to see them at $1k and up is not uncommon for the better ones.  Some of the top of the line ones the film producers use will make you cry when you see the prices.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2012/07/22 09:30:46

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dlong241950
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/22 12:39:06 (permalink)
Yes, I agree with you. A concert flute is tunable (as are all other winds), and when it was sampled individually, the pitch was probably not checked properly. Pity, because all of the instruments in this library are true to life and believable.

Here's the latest: I did a search first for a flute VSTi plugin to replace that one track. Found plenty, but were mixed in with a lot of other instruments and very expensive. I'm not against spending money, but for just one instrument, it wasn't worth the expense.

Second, I searched for SFz files. Both searches took a few hours, but I found one that just had a concert flute (Cambridge). I tried that and there was a world of difference over what I had. I am quite happy now.

What do I plan to do? Although  I am now fond of Rock, country, bluegrass, jazz, spiritual and other genres, I grew up as a classical musician (Bassoon was main, plus other winds). I played in orchestras and ensembles a lot. Very satisfying. The pieces I am now collecting into MC5 are mostly quintets (Piano, oboe, clarinet, french horn and bassoon or a flute part instead of the piano. My intent was to have these all written out, then mute the bassoon part and play along with the rest to start practicing again.

Thanks so much for all your help. Will look into the software that you have recommended in case I branch out into something larger one day.

Best Regards
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dlong241950
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/22 12:46:12 (permalink)
Guitarhacker


Pitch and tune might adjust the master tuning, but I have not used this synth so I do not know what the amount of adjustment would be or how to make it apply to the patch you are using. 

Have you tried the Sound center? I think it has flute in it..... 

I am quite busy and do not have a lot of time to play with a synth that I have not used...... maybe Beagle will be along shortly to answer this 


MC Sound Center has two programs: a Pan Flute and a Wooden Flute. Those don't sound like a classic concert flute. Kontak and Kore and Reaktor by NI doesn't appear to have any flute programs at all (Think I saw a Pan Flute in one of these).
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/22 13:27:38 (permalink)
Kontakt has orchestral samples in it. I have used the flute in it, but Kontakt is one of the medium priced samplers out in the market. It is considered the bare minimum needed to work in TV & film, with the higher end samplers being preferred. 

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57Gregy
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/23 00:37:15 (permalink)
I suggest you try Dimension LE with the Garritan Pocket Orchestra.
It's on sale for $50 at the moment and I think the GPO sounds are very good.
You can download it, too, from Cakewalk:
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/DimensionLE/default.aspx
 

Greg 
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Guitarhacker
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/23 07:53:33 (permalink)
Yes, Greg is correct. GPO would be a big step up to better sounds if you are using the sfz samples and especially if you are doing like I did when I first started, which was to search the net for the free sfz sounds and use them. 

Besides, no more having to unpack the sounds and be sure you have the right ones for the player....

GPO just works like it's supposed to, and yeah, it has some pretty decent samples in it too.  A complete orchestra and more.

My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

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dlong241950
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/24 16:16:22 (permalink)
This is a postscript to this thread. For those of you who are interested in the results of your suggestions, I have posted the two projects (as MP3 files) on a share site.

First, the rocker of his time was Mozart. This piece was, at the age of 22, his best and most beautiful composition. K-452 for Piano, Oboe, Clarinette, French Horn and Bassoon.
http://www.4shared.com/mp3/t-RBJR4G/Mozart-K452__3_.html

Second, some of you may know this as the theme from the Alfred Hitchcock Presents TV show way back when. It's actually taken from a classical piece by Charles Gounod. Funeral March of a Marionette, adapted for Flute, Oboe, Clarinette, French Horn and Bassoon.
http://www.4shared.com/mp3/7q6uraxS/FMOAM-3.html

Give these pages time to load in your browser. There may be an advert before it loads. The upload process cut off the last few notes of each file. Don't know what's up with that. Sorry. Probably not quite movie score material, but I am quite happy with the results. It's close enough.

Thanks guys. I have a newly found respect for Music Creator. Can't wait to expand my horizons. It's fun!
 
Critical opinion always welcome.
 
post edited by dlong241950 - 2012/07/24 16:27:14
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/24 16:54:31 (permalink)
You will not get many folks to listen if they have to sign up, register, log in, or download the files.

I would add one more recommendation:  Get a free streaming audio site. 

www.soundclick.com or www.reverbnation.com both offer good quality streaming audio for free.

I don't download or like to log in to listen to music.  

You need to sign up and log in to one of these sites (or other that provides streaming audio) and it takes a few minutes to set up a new account then you can load your music to the sites as MP3 and we can click on the link and hear the music. No sign in needed.



post edited by Guitarhacker - 2012/07/24 16:56:27

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dlong241950
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/24 18:17:37 (permalink)
Sorry about that. I have one computer (no remote/neutral access) and didn't know that the "shared files" would require login/registration. It didn't say that. Apologies.

Hope this is better:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=1261839

Regards,
Dan
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dlong241950
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/24 18:34:45 (permalink)
If it doesn't load for you, the site says that it takes a couple of days to validate/approve the link. Check back!
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Guitarhacker
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/24 22:12:13 (permalink)
That's better.  It plays just fine. 

Did you play this in on a keyboard? The sounds are pretty decent. Good job. 

  crits: the midi velocity all seems to be the same. you need some expression in the music.... the human factor. Very few people would play it that perfect or steady. It kinda reminds me of "switched on Bach" back in the day when synths first came out in the music biz. 

Still listening.... that is quite the accomplishment.  Great job on the music.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2012/07/24 22:13:59

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dlong241950
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/25 12:27:51 (permalink)
Yes, am aware of the "human" factor. Been thinking about how to go about it. Still a work in progress!
Thanks for the kind comments.
No keybaord (although I do have a Casio midi keyboard). Entered these notes on staff view, one at a time. Whew!
 
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57Gregy
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/25 20:27:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
You can insert a velocity envelope to draw in volume changes.

Greg 
I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
Everything is better with pie. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=609446
http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/gregfields 
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Guitarhacker
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Re:MC 5 Quantize whole track 2012/07/26 09:08:57 (permalink)
dlong241950


No keybaord (although I do have a Casio midi keyboard). Entered these notes on staff view, one at a time. Whew!
 

DUDE!   that took a lot of time.  and an understanding of music ......  I'm impressed!

My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
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"Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
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