spindlebox
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MIDI Effects
OK, I'm trying to play around with my newly working midi track, however I can't apply effects to it. All I want to do is a little reverb. I know in the Console View there are Chorus and Reverb sliders just above the fader, but I push those all the way on and hear NOTHING.
Also, the manual says the following:
Pro Audio provides the ability to use plug-in MIDI effects. Using plug-in
effects is similar to using the MIDI processing commands described
earlier in the chapter. The overall procedure is as follows:
- Select the MIDI data to be affected.
- Choose the effect you want from the Edit-MIDI Effects menu or
from the pop-up menuÕs MIDI Effects menu.
However, I do this and under the EDIT menu there is not an option for Midi Effects.
Next, I select the track in TRACK view and right click. I'm able to choose Audio Effects and the menu there. However, when I apply any of the effects, "AUDITION" or don't audition I hear NOTHING.
Am I crazy? (Don't answer that, just the above.) ;)
Thanks in advance
Scott
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larrymcg
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RE: MIDI Effects
February 14, 08 6:20 PM
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Hi again! We sure are having a good time! Right?
The two sliders in the Console view operate the chorus and reverb effects built into the synth you are using. They work fine with my hardware synths but do not work with the MS GS Wavetable synth and the SoundFont synth. From our previous session to get the midi working, I believe you are using the MS GS Wavetable synth. Do you have any other hardware or software synths available to try?
When you say you hear nothing when you slide the sliders, I assume you mean you hear the midi playing but no changes due to the effects. Right? If you don't hear the midi playing then there is some other problem to be dealt with.
The midi plug-ins do not do "audio" like operations like chorus and reverb and EQ. They do transformations on the midi data or create more midi data based on the data that is there already. So, for example, you can fiddle with the note velocity, or transpose notes, or create arpeggios.
Although the right-click context menu seems to have the audio effects available on a midi track, trying to apply one does nothing.
The audition feature of the midi effects plays a short loop of midi data. I believe it starts the loop at the beginning of the selected area. Lots of times the entire track is selected so the audition starts at the beginning of the track. Many tracks start off with no midi notes so the audition is silent. So make sure you have selected some midi that has some notes in it.
You can also apply midi effects in the console view just like applying audio effects there. Right click in the effects bin and proceed as normal. These effects are applied "on the fly" -- that is, are non-destructive. Effects applied by right clicking the track are destructive. They actually change the midi data in the track. Using the Edit>Midi Effects... menu is also destructive.
When using the menu Edit>Midi Effects.... the entries will be greyed out if no data is selected in the current track. There should be a Midi Effects... menu item, you just can't do anything without some data selected.
--Larry
Intel Core i7-4790 @3.6GHz; 8GB; Win10 Pro 64bit; 1TB disk + 3TB ext disk; Midiman Fineline mixer; MidiSport 4x4 midi I/F; Roland JV-30 kbd/synth; Yamaha TG55 synth; Rx with 3 piece Home audio speakers; Sonar X3e Studio
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spindlebox
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RE: MIDI Effects
February 15, 08 8:34 PM
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Hi again! We sure are having a good time! Right?
Always!!! 
The two sliders in the Console view operate the chorus and reverb effects built into the synth you are using. They work fine with my hardware synths but do not work with the MS GS Wavetable synth and the SoundFont synth. From our previous session to get the midi working, I believe you are using the MS GS Wavetable synth. Do you have any other hardware or software synths available to try?
Not at present, unfortunately, other than a VST one (Native Instruments B4).
When you say you hear nothing when you slide the sliders, I assume you mean you hear the midi playing but no changes due to the effects. Right? If you don't hear the midi playing then there is some other problem to be dealt with.
Correct on the sliders, I hear it playing just fine.
The midi plug-ins do not do "audio" like operations like chorus and reverb and EQ. They do transformations on the midi data or create more midi data based on the data that is there already. So, for example, you can fiddle with the note velocity, or transpose notes, or create arpeggios.
Check
Although the right-click context menu seems to have the audio effects available on a midi track, trying to apply one does nothing.
The audition feature of the midi effects plays a short loop of midi data. I believe it starts the loop at the beginning of the selected area. Lots of times the entire track is selected so the audition starts at the beginning of the track. Many tracks start off with no midi notes so the audition is silent. So make sure you have selected some midi that has some notes in it.
Check. And NUTHIN!!
You can also apply midi effects in the console view just like applying audio effects there. Right click in the effects bin and proceed as normal. These effects are applied "on the fly" -- that is, are non-destructive. Effects applied by right clicking the track are destructive. They actually change the midi data in the track. Using the Edit>Midi Effects... menu is also destructive.
Not able to right click in the effects bin and bring effects up! Also, there is NO Edit>MIDI Effects in the pull-down menu.
When using the menu Edit>Midi Effects.... the entries will be greyed out if no data is selected in the current track. There should be a Midi Effects... menu item, you just can't do anything without some data selected.
Yeah, for some reason there isn't that feature. Perhaps I didn't install it?
Other weird things:
When applying effects (Cakewalk effects) as per usual to audio tracks, they sound HORRIBLE. For instance the REVERB sounds like a big wash of noise.
Also, when I try to mixdown, I only get the audio tracks and not the midi track.
(Did we say we were having fun?!)
Scott
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larrymcg
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RE: MIDI Effects
February 16, 08 9:41 AM
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Effects bin: Let's make sure we are talking about the same thing. In the Console view there is a fairly large black box at the top of each track and if you hover the mouse over it it should say something like "right-click to add an effect". If you right-click a menu pops up with MIDI or AUDIO effects, depending on the track type. Right? When you right-click in the effects bin, what happens? It looks to me that the midi effects are implemented as dll files and are stored in the Cakewalk application folder (something like C:\program files\cakewalk\cakewalk pro audio 9\ ). There should be two files for each midi effect: the dll file and a help file. For example, chordanalyzer.dll and chordanalyzer.hlp. Similarly for echodelay, arpeggiator, etc. Do you have those files? Is the problem with audio effects sounding horrible a new problem? I thought you had been using PA9 successfully with audio. Audio mixdown - midi is not audio so you can't mix it down. You have to convert the midi tracks to audio tracks. You do that essentially by playing one or more midi tracks and recording the resulting audio. This subject comes up so often that I have a set of links to help folks out: Here are links from the Cakewalk Forum on converting midi to audio: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=324901&mpage=1&key= http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=659472&mpage=1&key= http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=217815&mpage=1&key= http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=631855&mpage=1&key= With your setup where you have only the MS GS Wavetable synth, you will have to route the audio outs of your soundcard to the audio ins of the soundcard (ugly, requires rewiring your soundcard). Some soundcards, especially the soundblaster types, have a feature called "Record what you hear". The feature can be turned on in the record section of the windows mixer. If your soundcard has the feature (sometimes it's called stereo mix), then you can enable it and the soundcard will route its output to its input. My M-Audio card doesn't do that so that's why I kept my soundblaster card too. Well, all that should keep you in the having fun situation for awhile! --Larry
Intel Core i7-4790 @3.6GHz; 8GB; Win10 Pro 64bit; 1TB disk + 3TB ext disk; Midiman Fineline mixer; MidiSport 4x4 midi I/F; Roland JV-30 kbd/synth; Yamaha TG55 synth; Rx with 3 piece Home audio speakers; Sonar X3e Studio
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spindlebox
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RE: MIDI Effects
February 17, 08 10:17 AM
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Effects bin: Let's make sure we are talking about the same thing. In the Console view there is a fairly large black box at the top of each track and if you hover the mouse over it it should say something like "right-click to add an effect". If you right-click a menu pops up with MIDI or AUDIO effects, depending on the track type. Right?
When you right-click in the effects bin, what happens? Well, what happened was I heard a "DING!" and it wouldn't let me do anything. It looks to me that the midi effects are implemented as dll files and are stored in the Cakewalk application folder (something like C:\program files\cakewalk\cakewalk pro audio 9\ ). There should be two files for each midi effect: the dll file and a help file. For example, chordanalyzer.dll and chordanalyzer.hlp. Similarly for echodelay, arpeggiator, etc. Do you have those files? There are AX files which I assume are cakewalks audio effects. There are NO .dll files as you've named them above, but plenty others. What I did, Larry, is got really confused and frustrated and then figured out a simple solution. I have Native Instruments B4 (the Hammond) and I was able to upload the MIDI file into the program and play it. I took 1/4" patch chords and went from my MONITOR OUT on my mixer to 2 "IN" CHANNELS on my mixer (for L/R). I then Opened Cakewalk and armed a track to record and played the B4 while recording. Worked great after I got the levels set correctly. Probably not perfect, but they didn't call me MacGyver in Recording Magazine for nothing!!! I'm hoping this will all be easier in Sonar. It frankly baffles me and makes me a bit angry that this process is not simpler, especially for a program that was originally developed and known for its' MIDI capability. I'm waiting for RAM to get here right now before I install Sonar.
post edited by spindlebox - February 17, 08 10:36 AM
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larrymcg
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RE: MIDI Effects
February 17, 08 12:44 AM
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The AX files are indeed the audio effects. For whatever reason, you don't seem to have any midi effects installed. I'm pretty sure they are a standard part of PA9.
You used what I call the "brute force" method to convert midi to audio. I also do that from time to time so I have a cheapo Radio Shack switch box that is made to switch in and out up to 3 tape decks. So the audio from my two external synths goes to the switch box and then I can switch the audio to my mixer or to my soundcard. I set it up that way when I installed the M-Audio soundcard and discovered it did not have the "record what you hear" feature.
Here's a gotcha - if you have a PA9 project with audio and midi tracks and you use the B4 synth to convert the midi, you will likely have synchronization issues when you import the new audio tracks into PA9. As long as the clocks were stable you will be able to slide the audio tracks around to synchronize them.
I suspect the converting midi to audio is just as ugly in Sonar. However, with Sonar you can run DXi and VSTi plugin synths and some software synths will "render" midi to audio and it can be recorded all inside the box. That would make it easier. Folks on the Sonar forums could point you in the right direction.
I saw the ruckus you stirred up when you first announced your acquisition of Sonar. Did you acquire another Sonar?
--Larry
Intel Core i7-4790 @3.6GHz; 8GB; Win10 Pro 64bit; 1TB disk + 3TB ext disk; Midiman Fineline mixer; MidiSport 4x4 midi I/F; Roland JV-30 kbd/synth; Yamaha TG55 synth; Rx with 3 piece Home audio speakers; Sonar X3e Studio
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spindlebox
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RE: MIDI Effects
February 17, 08 12:56 AM
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Brute Force, I like it!!!
The sync issues weren't a big deal, just did a little sliding around and it worked great. Yeah, the manual for NI B4 has thorough Sonar instructions, and it sounds like I'll be able to use it as a software synth and record real time which is cool.
Yeah, there are some primadonnas on that Sonar forum for sure. I ended up getting 7 just because it didn't make sense to buy an older version with no support or upgradability, most importantly. I still strongly feel what I was doing wasn't wrong, fundamentally. as that copy I was buying was the only existing copy (it was erased from the seller's computer), and Cakewalk had gotten their money before from it. Too bad it's essentially trash now considering Cakewalk won't transfer the license. It's just greed if you ask me. I mean, some new cars you buy transfer the warranty to new sellers. The company already got the money for it. Anyway, don't get me started. Suffice it to say, that's water under the bridge.
I think the moral to the Recording MIDI game is: when there's a will, there's a way!!!
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spindlebox
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RE: MIDI Effects
February 28, 08 9:17 AM
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UPDATE:
I got Sonar installed and running and using MIDI is WAYY easy. No more brute force method!. When I mixed down a track with MIDI information, IT WAS AUDIBLE ALONG WITH EVERYTHING ELSE. Go figure!? You can also FREEZE tracks (audio/synth) to minimize CPU usage. It's sort of like writing effects destructively to tracks to save CPU, although you can UN-FREEZE tracks to make adjustments to your synth. When it's right, you can freeze again, and your CPU goes down in usage by about 10-15%!!! Nice.
Just that right there is cause to upgrade for any of you MIDI aficianados using PA9. It's so much easier.
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larrymcg
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RE: MIDI Effects
February 28, 08 11:48 AM
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Scott,
Your post got me to take a quick look at some descriptions of track freezing with Sonar. Looks pretty nice.
I think the feature for easy conversion of midi to audio works only with soft-synths. With outboard synths you still have to "record the audio". Which means you must have been using a soft-synth. Right?
--Larry
Intel Core i7-4790 @3.6GHz; 8GB; Win10 Pro 64bit; 1TB disk + 3TB ext disk; Midiman Fineline mixer; MidiSport 4x4 midi I/F; Roland JV-30 kbd/synth; Yamaha TG55 synth; Rx with 3 piece Home audio speakers; Sonar X3e Studio
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spindlebox
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RE: MIDI Effects
February 28, 08 9:17 PM
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Larry! Yeah, the track freezing is pretty handy for sure. You're right about the soft-synth, too; that's what I used. I used the B4 by NI. If you wanna give it a listen, it's called "What A Lonely Day": http://www.soundclick.com/alicesweetalice I'm still looking for a good free piano plug, I'm just about tapped right now after getting my new software. Everyone keeps talking about some of Sonar's stock plugs but they're so DARN CPU intensive and don't sound that great anyway. (I'm still not flying high on the RAM front, even though I just maxed my machine out with 768MB RAM and tripled the page file to 2304.) After reinstalling XP and scaling 'er way down (services, sounds, etc.), tweaking latency settings, it runs pretty good!!! That freezing tracks helps though, big time! Also, the SONAR project files are 10X as big as PA9's! Amazing. I didn't realize that MIDI & softsynths gobbled up so much CPU. I guess it depends on the synth, so that freezing option is a godsend. You can't tweak on the fly, but that's nothing but a minor inconvenience. I'm one of those that when I find something (a sound) that works I stick with it anyway.
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larrymcg
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RE: MIDI Effects
February 28, 08 9:58 PM
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Midi takes next to no cpu. In the olden days I could run a bunch of midi tracks (with external synths) on a 25MHz Mac. Yes, I really did say 25MHz. Software synths and effects can really use up cpu cycles (and memory too). It seems that lots of folks are moving away from external hardware synths in favor of software synths. CPU cycles are getting more plentiful and cheaper too. And if you have multiple core CPUs Sonar will take advantage of them. AMD and Intel are anxiously awaiting your dollars!
I have no idea about a good software piano synth. But pianos are notoriously hard to do. I think it has to do with everyone knowing what a piano sounds like. It's even considered a difficult instrument to record and play back in a convincing way. I just use the piano sounds that are in my JV-30 keyboard/synth.
--Larry
Intel Core i7-4790 @3.6GHz; 8GB; Win10 Pro 64bit; 1TB disk + 3TB ext disk; Midiman Fineline mixer; MidiSport 4x4 midi I/F; Roland JV-30 kbd/synth; Yamaha TG55 synth; Rx with 3 piece Home audio speakers; Sonar X3e Studio
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spindlebox
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RE: MIDI Effects
February 29, 08 8:06 PM
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Oh yeah, I remember those days Larry. I remember when I worked in San Francisco and my office had a 486 PC with 16mb ram!!!! I was flying!!!! Oh, and it had a 14,400Kbps MODEM. This was in 1992. Remember BBS?
My friend had a copy of one of the first Cakewalks, the DOS version, and it worked great as a sequencer. I think he could run a few keys at a time on it. Of course, it was beyond me. Times they are a-changin!!!
One of the ladies on the Sonar forum is sending me a copy of a program she has (freeware) called Splendid. She sent it to me but apparently it needs a seperate sound font player. I've tried to load it in Sonar and it just doesn't see it. Strange.
One of these days I'm going to grab myself a keyboard interface and really start making music!!! ;)
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