MIDI INPUT LAG

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drixy
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2010/01/24 22:25:10 (permalink)

MIDI INPUT LAG

Hi!
 
Newbie here!
 
Roland D-50 (80's MIDI controller keyboard) MIDI'ed out to Edirol UM-1 (MIDI interface) USB'ed into notebook computer running Windows 7 64bits running Sonar 8.3.1 64 bits USB'ed out into Edirol SD-20 sound module.
 
I'm just trying to play the keyboard into an armed empty new MIDI track and every note I play I hear with a half second delay...
 
I have tried recording and have the same delay...
 
In Options... MIDI devices..., I have my UM-1 checked as input device and theSD-20 checked as output device.
 
I have tried changing Audio ...options... advanced... playback and recording...from MME (32Bit) to ASIO or WDM without success.
 
What shoud I try now?
 
René
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    Stone House Studios
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    Re:MIDI INPUT LAG 2010/01/24 22:37:31 (permalink)
    Rene'
    I'm not sure why you are doing it this way - primarily because as you learn to use the soft synths inside Sonar, you won't need to patch out to an external module (which you would have to record to get the sounds.) Try learning the software with the included synths - you will find that as you learn how to use Sonar's midi features, you may never go external again!

    Brian

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    #2
    drixy
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    Re:MIDI INPUT LAG 2010/01/24 22:42:10 (permalink)
    I forgot to add:
     
    If I open any MIDI file and pause it's playing, I then can play from my keyboard  without any lag...
     
    I seem to lag only when I play or record into a new file.
     
    »René
    #3
    drixy
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    Re:MIDI INPUT LAG 2010/01/24 22:50:10 (permalink)
    Thanks Stone House!
     
    Call me old fashioned for using an external module!
     
    The main reason I am doing so is so I can output 2 different signals, one MIDI USB'ed out  to the sound module and then to the room, and the second signal (a softsynth klik) from the headphones output of the notebook computer directly into the drummer's mixer to his headphones.
     
    Anyway I could achieve this using ONLY soft synths?
     
    I still want to address my New track MIDI lag problem
     
    Anyone?
    #4
    John
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    Re:MIDI INPUT LAG 2010/01/24 23:11:32 (permalink)
    Use for now WDM mode and adjust the latency slider until the delay is effectively gone.

    Best
    John
    #5
    drixy
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    Re:MIDI INPUT LAG 2010/01/25 00:00:09 (permalink)
    John,
     
    WDM mode does not solve problem and latency of 0 or 5000 does no change...
     
    I noticed tha tthe UM-1 input device I use to record shows up correctly in Options...MIDI devices... Input... but when I go to Options...audio... Drivers tab... I see only the microphone from my internal notebook's soundcard... Where is my UM-1?
     
    René
     
    #6
    CJaysMusic
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    Re:MIDI INPUT LAG 2010/01/25 00:11:12 (permalink)
    noticed tha tthe UM-1 input device I use to record shows up correctly in Options...MIDI devices... Input... but when I go to Options...audio... Drivers tab... I see only the microphone from my internal notebook's soundcard... Where is my UM-1?

    Thats could be your problem. Disable your onboard card for now and then switch to WDM and run your wave profiler. Using your audio sound card/interface and not the onboard piece of shoot will most likely fix your issues when set up correctly.
     
    After running the wave profiler make sure your playback and Recording timing I/O master is set to your sound card/interface. Then lower that latency as low as it goes. 1.2ms to 5ms shoudl work. If it doesnt, then switch to ASIo mode and set (click) the ASIO tab so it takes you to your asio control panel and lower the buffer to 32 or 64 or 128
    Cj


    www.audio-mastering-mixing.com - A Professional Worldwide Audio Mixing & Mastering Studio, Providing Online And Attended Sessions. Rated # 1 on Top20Sites For Audio Mastering.
     
     
    #7
    Muso55
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    Re:MIDI INPUT LAG 2010/01/25 11:58:54 (permalink)
    Hi Guys,

    Have just noticed this thread and had similar probs with Sonar 4 a few years ago. Is this an Audio or Midi  timing prob gents?

    Drixy, may I suggest that you arm a MIDI track, record a simple passage using the metronome and take a look at the data in the piano roll view. Do not at this stage worry about outboard sounds. If your data is not 'on the beat' as played,  you will 'see' the lag in the above view. If it is  lagging (and you subsequently hear it when outputting to an audio unit WITH the metronome) then this points to a midi timing problem.
     Try it, let me know if it is and I will come back.

    Muso55
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    uncleswede
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    Re:MIDI INPUT LAG 2010/01/25 17:35:28 (permalink)
    Do you have any other tracks with either a convolution reverb, or the Sonar transient shaper on (not sure of the exact name - I only have Sonar Studio 8.3.1). Because of their processing nature certain plug-ins cannot be used for tracking, only playback, and can cause frightening MIDI lag when recording (tracking)...

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    #9
    slloyd
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    Re:MIDI INPUT LAG 2010/02/03 13:33:38 (permalink)
    After a hiatus of a few years I'm just starting to get back into recording. My first attempt at recording some basic MIDI tracks was extremly disappointing; actually, it started out okay, but at some point it seemed as though there was a sudden and undeniable lag introduced somewhere between the time I hit a key on my Kurzweil K2VX and the time I heard the audio output from it.

    I guess I should outline my setup before I go further:  K2VX, set to MIDI-only control (i.e., local control turned off), into MIDISPORT 8x8s USB MIDI interface, and back into the K2VX. Sonar 5 and Win XP SP3.

    Anyway, as I started out mentioning, when I play a note on the K2VX there is an audible delay before I hear the note play from the K2VX output. Also, it sounds like a flam/doubling/echo sound on every note, and even my 11 YO son could hear it. I also notice the same phenomenon from the metronome (set to trigger a K2VX drumstick sound), and if I record, all this nasty lag/flam mess is present on playback.
     
    FWIW, MIDI-OX only shows a single note on and note off per note played. Also, no soft synths here (I gave up on them years ago because the lag was waaaay too much, probably on the order of .25 to 1S!), just pure MIDI lag. 

    The strange thing is that I didn't notice the lag until an hour or two after I initially started fooling around with Sonar, around the same time that I was experimenting with using my Alesis D4 drumkit to trigger the K2VX. But disconnecting the D4 from the MIDISPORT made no difference.

    It might be worth noting that I struggled with getting the MIDISPORT to show up under MIDI Devices in Sonar; when I first started Sonar I got a message that no MIDI devices were installed, and sometimes NONE of the 8 ports showed up, other times ALL the ports showed up, and other times varying numbers of ports showed up! It might also be worth noting that I used to have a Tascam US2400 control surface connected, but I removed it to simplify things, but to no avail.

    So, any suggestions before I toss it all into the local sewage treatment plant?

    #10
    brundlefly
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    Re:MIDI INPUT LAG 2010/02/03 13:56:02 (permalink)

    So, any suggestions before I toss it all into the local sewage treatment plant?
      Probably better to start your own thread. People will be confused if they don't go to the last post first.

    In any case. The key question would be how are you monitoring the output of the Kurzweil, and what audio interface are you using?
    Doubled notes with local control off sounds like direct monitoring of audio mixed with input monitoring delayed by the latency of your interface. And if it's an onboard sound system like Realtek, that latency is going to be high. Also, Realtek is probalby sending input back to the output (direct monitoring) by default. Make sure the soundcard's mixer source is set to Line In, rather than "Stereo Mix" or "What U Hear" or some such.

    To test MIDI latency, loop a MIDISport output back to an input, and re-record some step-entered MIDI notes. That round-trip shouldn't be more than a few MIDI ticks. If that checks out, MIDI is not the problem. It's audio latency.


    post edited by brundlefly - 2010/02/03 13:57:47
    #11
    slloyd
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    Re:MIDI INPUT LAG 2010/02/03 15:48:55 (permalink)
    Thanks for the comments, brundlefly. You're right, it does sound like direct sound mixed with latent audio. I'm currently using a MOTU 896 for audio, but I didn't mention it because it's out of the equation as far as this problem is concerned (or so I thought... see my comments after the light bulb comes on, below), since I'm monitoring the K2VX output directly through a Mackie 1604VLZ.

    But wait... a light bulb just flickered! After playing with the D4 for awhile, as a controller to trigger the K2VX, I decided to run the D4 audio output into my mixer so I could monitor the D4's internal sounds as well. I didn't have any spare inputs on the 1604, so I pulled out my LM3204 and patched the K2VX and D4 into it. I then took the 3204 out and fed it into the 1604... and this is apparently where the trouble began! I have the 1604 set up so that the direct outs of 2 of the channels (1/2 or 3/4) feed the MOTU 896 for latency-free monitoring while tracking. Well, I guess I must have patched the 3204 into the wrong 2 channels, thus creating two audio paths, one direct, and one delayed by a few mS! I'll confirm this when I get home tonight, but I'm about 99.996% sure that's what happened.

    Duh, nothing like overlooking the obvious, only to have a stranger -who is working on limited info-  figure it out for you! Hopefully it's just the result of my hiatus from Sonar/MIDI, and once I get my studio put completely back together and get re-acquainted with everything I'll be able to do my own basic troubleshooting again.

    Didn't mean to hijack this thread, but I've never been completely clear on the etiquette of forums, and it seemed like an applicable topic that might have a common cause and solution. If, after swapping input channels -or simply turning down the faders for the 896 output- I discover that I still have a problem, then I'll come back and start a new thread.

    Thanks again, brundlefly, and good luck with your issue, drixy.
    #12
    John
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    Re:MIDI INPUT LAG 2010/02/03 16:00:56 (permalink)
    I noticed tha tthe UM-1 input device I use to record shows up correctly in Options...MIDI devices... Input... but when I go to Options...audio... Drivers tab... I see only the microphone from my internal notebook's soundcard... Where is my UM-1?
    Well one good reason is that is a MIDI interface and not an audio device.

    The delay is due most likely to your using an audio driver that is not optimal for low latency audio.

    Best
    John
    #13
    brundlefly
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    Re:MIDI INPUT LAG 2010/02/03 16:18:28 (permalink)

    Duh, nothing like overlooking the obvious, only to have a stranger -who is working on limited info-  figure it out for you!

    I think this comes under the heading of "Don't ask me how I know this, but..." (a.k.a. Been there, done that). 

    Didn't mean to hijack this thread

    No problem. Just thought I'd mention it to reduce confusion in case it took another 20 posts to resolve your issue. As you can see, John got faked out and responded to a week-old post from the OP. 
    #14
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