MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question.

Author
DuckRumble
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 11
  • Joined: 2015/08/02 21:05:29
  • Status: offline
2015/08/06 15:52:39 (permalink)

MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question.

My Windows 7 based home studio was fine but old; it was also full of dog-hair so Windows 10 inspired me to build something new and improved so I did. I used to get good service out of a Creative Fatal1ty X-Fi which had an XG-MIDI synth built in. Thinking I wouldn't need this in the 21st Century I took that out and got a USB M-Audio, M-Track external soundcard/interface. I installed Windows 10 and had to get Sonar Artist to replace Sonar 6 to get driver compatibility for ASIO but the price was very good so I was happy about that. 
 
Now I have super-low latency and everything is fixed with Audio.
 
However, the MIDI became more interesting when I found that Sonar Artist has a great plugin for drums which sound great in my room through the M-Audio, external USB soundcard/amp and speakers. Also, I found I can get a USB to MIDI in and out lead to hook up my Roland piano as a controller, or my MIDI drumkit, I suppose. Maybe MIDI - I thought - is still relevant and perky.
 
Then I found I had an issue I hadn't expected and I wonder if anyone can suggest a solution? 
 
With the Creative card, a track of MIDI could be soloed and recorded by playing it whilst the PC was set in a mode where it could hear everything going through the soundcard. This option has vanished and now I only see my M-Audio in and out and my bluetooth headphones. There seems to be nothing I can do to actually use these great drums in Artist because I can't record them to audio. In fact, no MIDI will record, even though I can hear it fine.
 
I may have to splash out on a USB MIDI sound module (if I can find one) and plug that into the M-Track audio socket. Are there any USB, home-studio priced ones around this decade?
 
The GS Wavetable sounds are far better than I expected and they're surely in there with Sonar in my PC. I've poked many, many things and found no way to get them to be heard as audio so that I can actually use them. I even tried putting the X-Fi back in and running its output to the M-Track. It sounded like a clown being drowned by a ninja on playback.
 
Is there some way I could get this MIDI that I can hear loud and clear to actually record? It seems nuts that it sounds so great in the room but I can't actually use any of it in Sonar...
 
Thanks,
Steve UK
 
UD3 mobo, 8350 at 4.0 GHZ, 16GB 1866 RAM, Nvidia GT240 graphics card, M-Audio M-Track,
Win 10 (with Cortana and all the spyware turned off).
#1

15 Replies Related Threads

    dcumpian
    Max Output Level: -34 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4124
    • Joined: 2005/11/03 15:50:51
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/06 16:11:16 (permalink)
    This is kind of a lengthy subject, but what you want to do is add the drum VST, then create a midi track and set its output to the drum VST. Or you can add the VST as a simple instrument which should do all of this for you automatically. I prefer using the synth rack and adding my own midi tracks, but use whatever works for you.
     
    The Sonar documentation has lots of the details around this.
     
    Regards,
    Dan
     
     

    Mixing is all about control.
     
    My music:
    http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.    
    #2
    DuckRumble
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11
    • Joined: 2015/08/02 21:05:29
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/06 17:10:17 (permalink)
    Thanks very much, Dan. I shall give that a shot. I appreciate your help.
    #3
    batsbrew
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 10037
    • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
    • Location: SL,UT
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/06 18:44:02 (permalink)
    even if you do not usually DO midi,
    it's a good idea to have the capability,
    especially if you end up working with other people,
    or on other people's projects.
     

    Bats Brew music Streaming
    Bats Brew albums:
    "Trouble"
    "Stay"
    "The Time is Magic"
    --
    Sonar 6 PE>Bandlab Cakewalk>Studio One 3.5>RME BFP>i7-7700 3.6GHz>MSI B250M>G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 16GB>Samsung 960 EVO m.2ssd>W 10 Pro
     
    #4
    mettelus
    Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5321
    • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
    • Location: Maryland, USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/06 18:58:04 (permalink)
    Also be sure to echo the VSTi. SONAR captures the MIDI performance, so the soft synth actually performs each time it plays. There is more possible after this stage, but is basically MIDI in->soft synth->audio out.

    ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
    #5
    DuckRumble
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11
    • Joined: 2015/08/02 21:05:29
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/06 20:02:17 (permalink)
    Thanks for the replies. I'm currently sending MIDI to the audio track where I have the SI drum kit synth enabled. I couldn't record so I dragged and pasted multiple copies of a clip straight off the list in the synth. I can play that but I still can't record it as audio. The audio track shows a monitored signal if I don't arm it to record. The MIDI and audio tracks have linked but when do I arm the audio track, echoed or not echoed, that signal vanishes so I get a flat line.
     
    Here is a picture of the line: ____________________________________
     
    I wonder if my use of an external USB soundcard, good though it is, might be causing this? I don't have my board's Realteks enabled. I might try them next. 
    #6
    dcumpian
    Max Output Level: -34 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4124
    • Joined: 2005/11/03 15:50:51
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/06 20:54:42 (permalink)
    Solo both tracks, select the midi clip, then select Tracks -> Bounce to Track. This creates the audio. You cannot record the audio from a VSTi (yet). It is coming in a future release.
     
    Regards,
    Dan

    Mixing is all about control.
     
    My music:
    http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.    
    #7
    DuckRumble
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11
    • Joined: 2015/08/02 21:05:29
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/07 10:17:21 (permalink)
    I'm still struggling. I found I couldn't see 'bounce to track' - just 'bounce to clips' and I didn't see anything happen when I tried it. I'm thinking my M-Track is causing me difficulties. All this just used to work internally with Creative's Fatal1ty X-Fi card which had an onboard XG-MIDI synth and external connector. 
     
    I dug out my ancient Yamaha MU10 today and rushed off to buy a USB MIDI lead for it. I got it to play from Sonar but its audio output, though clear on headphones, wouldn't record no matter what I tried to configure. I could see a signal entering the M-Track but nothing came right. I tried to find suitable ins and outs but got nowhere. I think I saw a recorded audio track at one giddy moment but that wouldn't actually play back on the M-Track. It's as if the PC chose between the MU10 or the M-Track but didn't like both. If I put headphones on the synth I'm golden but what use is that?
     
    I'm tempted to go back to the store and change the M-Track for a good PCI soundcard. Having looked at them online, I can't see one with a built in MIDI synth like my Fatal1ty had. It's as if modern gear and Microsoft are conspiring to phase MIDI out altogether. Just as Sonar has such nice features as drum synths, too! Even so, it may be that a card in a PCI socket is worth two in a USB... 
     
    The M-Track makes GS wavetable output sound excellent. Not like the rinky-tink Realtek rendition. If only I could record MIDI as audio internally to Sonar that would be perfect. What would have been even better is if Creative had supported the Fatal1ty and not called it 'end of life' when I tried to find drivers that Windows 10 liked. If I rolled back to Windows 7 on my old card I wouldn't be looking so frowny. I'm trying to embrace the budget techno-future but my brand-spanking new Sonar Artist, brand new computer guts, and brand new USB external soundcard seem to find MIDI too much. Nobody knows what MIDI even is at my local tech store. It's like explaining how life was in ancient times to cheerful children.
     
    Which is why I'm thankful for your suggestions. For now I'm going to drag my MIDI drum kit into my music room and see if I can at least lay down an audio track on that. If you have any more thoughts I'm very interested to hear them. I wonder what audio-based solutions Cakewalk may have to offer? Acid Music loops work fine if I drag them in. I could try a demo of the next Sonar up, too. Maybe it has some magic beans.
    #8
    DuckRumble
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11
    • Joined: 2015/08/02 21:05:29
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/07 12:02:34 (permalink)
    Ah ha! There was something on the M-Track that I'd got turned up but when I turned it down was there! Bit counter intuitive but now things are making a noise at last! I can't believe this MU10 survived all these years in the back of a cupboard. I'm going to waste many happy hours with the old MIDI after all. Excellent.
    #9
    Cactus Music
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8424
    • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/07 12:36:59 (permalink)
    If your Keyboard controller and Drum set do not have USB for midi transmition you should have bought an Audio interface with midi ports. 
    If you just bought that interface consider returning it and buying one with MIDI ports. 

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #10
    BobF
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8124
    • Joined: 2003/11/05 18:43:11
    • Location: Missouri - USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/07 13:21:43 (permalink)
    Here's a gotcha on MIDI interfaces I ran into.  I have a Peavey AT200 guitar that get's updates and can be controlled via MIDI.  Antares provides a cool little application to create and store presets in the guitar that be be recalled later without being connected.  It's a slick setup.
     
    The problem is that out of all the MIDI interfaces I have, the MIDISport is the only one that can handle large sysex messages.  According to Antares, MIDI interfaces that rely on Windows class drivers won't work.
     
    If you don't need this kind of thing, then no problem.  However, you have MIDI gear and will be sending large sysex messages, check out the details before you buy an interface.
     
     

    Bob  --
    Angels are crying because truth has died ...
    Illegitimi non carborundum
    --
    Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64
    Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s 
    Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U

    #11
    DuckRumble
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11
    • Joined: 2015/08/02 21:05:29
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/07 13:33:47 (permalink)
    I was fast arriving at the same conclusion when everything came together acceptably after all. I've got my Roland piano next to the computer desk with my old Yamaha MU10 daisy-chained through that via USB and everything works! I think this suffice for now as I can use it. It seemed harder to source sound components than when I built my last system and the Fatali1ty with a front panel I could plug a guitar straight into was easy to get. Sound cards I've been reading about lately seem to be more about whether you can hear someone behind you in BF3 (whatever that is. :) ) 
    #12
    DuckRumble
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11
    • Joined: 2015/08/02 21:05:29
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/07 13:40:43 (permalink)
    That guitar sounds interesting. It's a long time since I played pubs but something like that would have been amazing. I remember Casio doing a MIDI guitar but how good it was I don't know. I shall now Google 'MIDIsport'. :) 
    #13
    BobF
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8124
    • Joined: 2003/11/05 18:43:11
    • Location: Missouri - USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/07 13:46:16 (permalink)
    The AT200 isn't a MIDI guitar.  It just uses MIDI for software updates and as a control option.  They are cool though.
     
    I only mentioned it because of the limited number of MIDI interfaces available with drivers that work properly.

    Bob  --
    Angels are crying because truth has died ...
    Illegitimi non carborundum
    --
    Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64
    Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s 
    Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U

    #14
    DuckRumble
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11
    • Joined: 2015/08/02 21:05:29
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/07 15:46:26 (permalink)
    I just watched a demo of the AT200. I've never seen anything like it. Amazing. My guitars were in tune when I bought them.
    #15
    BobF
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8124
    • Joined: 2003/11/05 18:43:11
    • Location: Missouri - USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: MIDI or not MIDI? That is the question. 2015/08/07 16:49:16 (permalink)
    DuckRumble
    I just watched a demo of the AT200. I've never seen anything like it. Amazing. My guitars were in tune when I bought them.




      It does much more than just tune.  It's a cool concept that works pretty well.

    Bob  --
    Angels are crying because truth has died ...
    Illegitimi non carborundum
    --
    Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64
    Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s 
    Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U

    #16
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1