MIDI sounds change when transposing

Bizarre. The actual timbre of the instruments changes?

I doubt it would make any difference if you changed key before inserting the synths. But then again, I have no idea why the sound of the instruments would change after being transposed.

There is another way to transpose, which is to use the note offset value in the track header. This doesn't alter your original MIDI data, but rather adds an offset value on the fly. The net effect is the same, which is the notes get shifted up (or down if you put in a negative number). You might see if that method behaves differently for you.

dscoyne


I have a project with no audio, all 24 tracks are MIDI.  When I transpose the whole song up 2 half-steps (C to D), the sounds of the instruments and the balance of the mix change.  I know it shoud sound higher in pitch but it definitely sounds inferior, with different intruments standing out more then before. 
 
I am using 2 instances of TTS-1 and 2 instances of Dimension Pro to provide the sounds.  Would it make any difference if I changed the key BEFORE rather than AFTER I inserted those synths? 
 
I changed the key by selecting all MIDI tracks and then using Process>Transpose, and selecting: up 2. 
 
I want to change the key so I can add a vocal in the proper range, but it sounds so much better in the original key, I am not sure how to proceed.  Anybody have experience with this?  Thanks. 

Hi, Dscoyne - Since I'm not there hearing the before and after, I can't be positive, but my impression is that what you're hearing is the effect that transposing can have on an arrangement. 

As soon as something is transposed beyond a step in either direction, voicings used in an arrangement start needing to be changed.  A chord that sounds fine in one key suddenly sounds muddy when shifted down.  The solution is to re-construct the chord so it's played in a different inversion i.e. 2nd or 3rd instead of 1. 

It can be a very time consuming process to re-write an arrangement so a new key sounds acceptable.  But I'm saying that I think you're hearing the weird effects of a harmony played too high, or a bass too low - the permutations of off-sounding shifts are infinite, but those kind of incorrect arrangements can make instruments sound wrong.

Randy B.

Thanks, guys, for helping me to understand.  If changing the chord voicings would be necessary, I would hate to have to go through that as my music theory skills are not all that sophisticated.
 
However, I was able to solve the problem by using a different program, Jammer Pro, which is the one I used to get the MIDI tracks into Sonar to start with.  To explain:
 
I am a non-performing songwriter who writes out notation (using MuseScore) in the form of lead sheets.  I then use Jammer Pro, an arranging program, to come up with MIDI tracks for the instruments in the different sections of a song.  I save these as a MIDI file which I then open in Sonar 8.5 PE to try different instrument sounds.
 
So I went back to Jammer Pro, changed the key, and opened that new MIDI file in Sonar.......no problem!  So for whatever reason, maybe because it is an arranging program to start with, Jammer Pro could handle this without negatively affecting the sound, with no changes needed in the chords, and I'm back in business.  
 
Thanks again..............Don 
   

Hi, Dscoyne - "...So I went back to Jammer Pro, changed the key, and opened that new MIDI file in Sonar.......no problem!  So for whatever reason, maybe because it is an arranging program to start with, Jammer Pro could handle this without negatively affecting the sound..."

Intelligent program - When you changed the key in JP, it chose chord voicings appropriate for that new key.  So your chord progression is still the same, but the chords are arranged so they're neither bottom heavy or top heavy.

As per Kev's helpful reply, what happens is you choose (or a program like JP chooses for you) different inversions of chords.  For instance, a "C" chord, spelled C-E-G in its basic configuration becomes E-G-C or G-C-E. 

Randy B.

But he's using an auto arranger program which does select new voicings automatically for him. Sometimes little free ware programs are better at things you would expect Sonar to do.  But then most of us would not necessarily be happy with the output of an auto arranger. Three times in my life I have tried to make band in a box output something I would call normal music and failed miserably. Hours wasted when I could have just played the damn thing myself. .}

I just opened my new account at SoundCloud, and may have made a mistep.  If the links in my last message do not load, do a search for: don coyne.
 
The original file is the one entitled:  Copy of DA2 C.  The other has transpose in the title.
 
Also, the style is not listed correctly......it should be Country/Bluegrass.

Johnny's right - we need a working link.  I gave it a few tries, but can't find your SoundCloud links - But is this what you've been talking about, transposed drum parts--?  That was Brundlefly's theory, and he could be right.  My whole trip on this thread has been about pitched instruments, and how transposing can throw chord inversions off  - but you've probably only been talking about new percussion/drum sounds coming in unexpectedly after transposing.  We can't tell without links to your samples.

The logic of not transposing drums is logical when you think about it.  You're dealing with unpitched instruments which are triggered on specific notes.  A snare will be on either one note, two or three, depending on the complexity of the drum program you're using.  But as soon as a drum track is transposed - the snare, the bass - everything will move up or down out of the range of the target instrument.  A kick drum is triggered by note C1.  Transpose the track up by a step, and now all those notes will be on D1 where the snare is.  And so it will go with the whole track - you'll get cowbells for toms, crash cymbals for toms --etc.

But pitched instruments obviously Can be transposed into all sorts of different keys - Drums need their notes always in the same place, or different, unintended parts of the kit will be triggered.  See?

Randy B.

dscoyne

Even though not working as they should, I have found that clicking on one of the links will take you to SoundClouds' site.  Once there, type:  don coyne     in the search box, and it should take you right to both song files.

A direct link is preferable:
http://soundcloud.com/ds-7

My favorite is the awesome sound of a piano track played on channel 10!
Funky groove man.

Ya your need to move the snare down from E2 to D2 - E2 is the crappy electro snare.

Open Piano roll and hold Ctrl and left click the keyboard note to highlight all the snare notes, now you can drag them down to the right spot, You'll hear the sounds as you go. Make sure you don't move it off time. The pop up box will tell you the time value.