MIDI tempo issue

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MelodicJimmy
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2011/03/04 02:49:17 (permalink)

MIDI tempo issue

So, here's the deal:
 
I recorded guitar, bass and drums at quarter note = 72 for a song that I'm working on (all audio files).  I made an mp3 out of the guitar/ bass/ drums, sent it to my keyboard player with a click on the mp3 (rather than use the metronome built into his DAW).  So, we never set a tempo in his project because I gave him a click in the mp3 from my project.  Make sense so far?
 
Anyway.... so, he records his keyboard parts..... via MIDI (Music Creator)..... he sends me the MIDI files..... BUT,  here's the problem:
 
Since we never set a tempo in his project because he recorded along to my mp3 with an added click, the MIDI file that he gave me thinks it's whatever tempo his Music Creator was set at.  So, when I import the file, it doesn't line up at all.  It's a completely different tempo.  Like I said, the song is SUPPOSED to be 72, but I think his Music Creator project had the tempo set at 120.  I tried just changing the tempo to 120 in my project, but that didn't do anything. 
 
So..... I know I made a huge mistake by not setting the tempos in Music Creator, but is there any way to fix it now so that his MIDI tracks line up with my audio tracks at quarter note = 72?

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    RobertB
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    Re:MIDI tempo issue 2011/03/04 07:16:07 (permalink)
    At this point, your best bet would be to have him bounce his track to audio, and send you the audio file.
    He'll need to export the solo audio track.
    Wav is best quality, but you'll need access to an FTP, because of the file size.
    WMA is second best, and should be small enough to send as an email attachment.
    A high bitrate MP3 would be ok, if he has a converter, but that would probably be my last choice.

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    Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
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    Beagle
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    Re:MIDI tempo issue 2011/03/04 08:39:46 (permalink)
    this doesn't sound like it should be as big of a problem as it is.  since he's sending you a MIDI file it should be no problem for that track to adjust to whatever tempo you have in your project, so I'm confused why it doesn't do that.

    try starting a completely new project in SHS, Jimmy, then set the tempo to 72, then import his MIDI file into a MIDI track.  does it play correctly there?  (just by what you think it sounds like - there should be a big difference between 72 and 120 to your ears).

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:MIDI tempo issue 2011/03/04 08:52:53 (permalink)
    Yeah... What Beagle said....

    Import the Midi into a new project with the tempo set to 72 BPM. add your synth and play it.

    Then.... open the old project with your audio and highlight the audio tracks and click on COPY.

    Close that project and open the new one with the midi @72 bpm. add the right number of audio tracks and click the top one and select PASTE. The audio from the old project should import nicely into the new one.

    If you just copy the midi track data (source track data) I wouldn't think importing it into a blank midi track would change the project tempo. Set the correct tempo BEFORE you import it.

    I have had some goofy stuff happen when I changed the tempo after importing midi into audio projects and then change the tempo....I don't recall the details but I remember thinking "What the....how did THAT happen?" at the time.

    Audio doesn't care what the tempo of the project is set to, but MIDI does.

    I try to make it a habit to check the BPM of the projects before I record the first note. Since I work with midi alot is it second nature to me, but if you are working in audio it's something you should definitely be aware of if you are working with others who might use Midi at some point. A click track goes a long way to keeping you on the beat.


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    #4
    MelodicJimmy
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    Re:MIDI tempo issue 2011/03/04 12:16:13 (permalink)
    Thanks for all of your replies and help. 

    Guitar Hacker, yeah, I usually do record with a click track.  That's why there was a click track on the mp3 that I sent him..... I made a click with a soft synth (TTS) and just exported it IN the mp3 as opposed to sending him an mp3 and him having to set the metronome in his DAW.  I just figured it would be easier that way.  So, the click was there, just on the mp3 he played along to. 

    Secondly - I have tried everything and nothing works.  I opened a new project, set it to 72, then imported the MIDI file, added the soft synth (again, TTS) and it plays back REALLY, REALLY slowly at 72 - as if it's half the tempo.  It's that dramatic.  It doesn't make sense to me because the original project that I sent to him as an mp3 was recorded at 72!  For some reason, it's going by what his Music Creator was set to, which was 120.  If I try to set it to 120, it STILL doesn't line up, though.  It's totally messed up and frustrating. 

    The only think I can think of is that his computer isn't very good and he's not using a real soundcard/ interface like I am.  He's using a Casio keyboard (don't laugh!) that's MIDI into Music Creator (using soft synths) and he's using the built in soundcard on his computer.  Now, I know you guys are rightly going to say:  "YOU SHOULD KNOW ENOUGH ALREADY THAT'S NOT GOOD!"  I do!  haha....

    But.... I figured it's MIDI.... just DATA, so even with a crappy keyboard/ MIDI controller and crappy built in soundcard, it shouldn't matter with MIDI, right? 

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    #5
    Beagle
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    Re:MIDI tempo issue 2011/03/04 12:41:44 (permalink)
    his computer and soundcard would have nothing to do with a MIDI track's tempo.  nor would his keyboard.  like you said - it's just data.

    open the EVENT LIST on that MIDI track and look and see if there are any hard tempo events.

    and if that doesn't help - send me the MIDI file and let me look at it.  my email is beagle at beaglesound dot com.

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    57Gregy
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    Re:MIDI tempo issue 2011/03/04 13:03:00 (permalink)
    In my limited experience with importing MIDI, the BPM is part of the MIDI file, so whenever I import a .mid into Vocaloid, for instance, Vocaloid assumes the tempo of the .mid even though the default BPM in Vocaloid is 120..
    So, Import the MIDI file into a new project. The project should assume the MIDI file's tempo. Then change the tempo to 72. You can then import that 72 BPM .mid into your other project, or import the project's tracks into the new project.

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    RobertB
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    Re:MIDI tempo issue 2011/03/04 23:16:27 (permalink)

    "quarter note = 72"
    What does this mean? It's not BPM, but appears to be a note length reference. Color me stupid, but I can't find it.
    Regardless, it's not particularly relevant to the actual problem.
    Do not set your BPM(tempo) to 72.
    Here's why.
    Even though the actual tempo may be 72 BPM, the MIDI track is recorded to a reference grid of 120 BPM. Adjusting the project BPM (or tempo) to 72, adjusts the framework of that grid, but does not change the actual BPM to 72. it will change the actual BPM to somewhere around 43 BPM.
    What you have is essentially a freeform pattern locked to an adjustable timeframe grid. With me so far?
    If you can confirm that his MC BPM is 120, set your own project to that. This will ensure that the actual tempo is correct.
    Now lets look at the second variable, his sound card. And sub-variable, his recording process.
    If he has MC set to the initial default setting, his latency could be as much as 500ms. Which means, by the time he hears the notes he is playing along with, your track is already on the next measure. This would explain why you got no love with your BPM set to 120(even though it was actually correct).
    I would insert several blank measures at the beginning of your project, so you have some room, and drag his track well forward of where it is now. At some point, it should come into alignment.
    For future referrence, if all parties of a collab know the project BPM, and set their own projects to that, it makes things much easier. But I think you've already figured that out.

    post edited by RobertB - 2011/03/05 00:52:46

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    Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
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    Beagle
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    Re:MIDI tempo issue 2011/03/05 07:24:46 (permalink)
    ah - I see what you're saying bob.  that makes sense. 
     
    I still think it's possible to change the reference, however.  I think the MIDI event will likely have a reference tempo in it causing him to not be able to change the tempo to the "correct" tempo in the project.

    and just to clear it up, "quarter note = 72" does mean bpm, with a quarter note getting the beat.  you can also reference an 1/8th note or 1/16th note or 1/2 note in the reference and that changes the speed - I just went over this with my piano teacher because I did it wrong.  he told me to set my metronome to 1/8th = 88, but I had set it to 1/4 = 88 and so I was playing it 2X faster than he intended.

    if you'll notice on sheet music there's a note symbol beside the bpm.  that's the note value for the tempo.

    like this example where 1/8th note = 120

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/MozartExcerptK331.svg
    post edited by Beagle - 2011/03/05 07:26:13

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    Beagle
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    Re:MIDI tempo issue 2011/03/05 08:00:20 (permalink)
    well.  I'll be durned if I can figure out HOW to change the reference.  I created a project, set up a click track at 70bpm (4/4), exported that as audio.  set up a new project (emulating the exchange between Jimmy and his friend), imported the audio click track but left the project tempo at 120.  then I played a few bars along with the click track on my piano and recorded as MIDI.
    then I saved the MIDI from the project and closed that project.  opened the 1st project and imported the MIDI into it (with the project tempo still at 70). 
    it does work exactly like Bob says (of course!) and if I change the tempo in that project to 120 then it lines up correctly.  but I can't seem to get it to change the reference so that it lines up correctly at 70 instead.
    I thought if I opened it in another new project and changed the tempo then saved as MIDI and imported it back into the original project that it might work that way, but no bananas.

    there should be a way for this to work.  but I can't seem to figure one out at the moment.

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    RobertB
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    Re:MIDI tempo issue 2011/03/05 10:23:30 (permalink)
    I think I found it, Reece.
    Highlight the MIDI clip, then select Process>Length.
    Check Start Times. This affects the start time of the notes within the time frame.
    Durations changes the length of the individual notes.
    You may or may not want to check that, depending on the patch you are using. If the duration is too short, patches with a slow attack may not sound.

    I brought the 120 BPM clip into the 72 BPM project, then applied Length at 60% (72/120). It lined up correctly, but there is one small catch.
    This adjusts relative time within the clip, but does not adjust for the whole project beyond that clip.
    So, if your first MIDI note happens to be at 1:20, it will remain at 1:20, and you have to nudge the clip forward to bring it into complete alignment.

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    Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
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    Beagle
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    Re:MIDI tempo issue 2011/03/05 15:01:30 (permalink)
    AH! yeah!  thanks Bob, I just got back home from taking my son to a job fair (which BTW he GOT A JOB! YAY!) and was about to start looking for a solution again.  yes, the process>length makes sense!

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    MelodicJimmy
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    Re:MIDI tempo issue 2011/03/05 19:25:11 (permalink)
    Great replies!  I'm sorry that I haven't replied sooner.  Beagle, do you still want me to send you that file?  It looks like there might be some good suggestions here, so maybe I should hold off and see if those suggestions work before sending it? 

    I'll update later on tonight.  Again, thanks for the replies!  Will be back later. 

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    #13
    Beagle
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    Re:MIDI tempo issue 2011/03/05 19:41:51 (permalink)
    you can send it if you want, but I think you have the replies here from Bob which will solve your problem.

    you can either change the tempo of your project to 120 (which that would cause problems only if you have other MIDI recorded in the project already referenced at 72)

    or you can use the PROCESS>LENGTH to fix the MIDI clip like he describes.

    or Bob's first suggestion - open it in a new project then bounce it to audio and then import that audio into your current project. 

    any of those methods should work for you.

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