Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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MOTU AVB series
Hi I'm researching options to upgrade (MOTU AVB vs. RME) and appreciate comments and answers to my questions. - I'm most interested in the MOTU 1248 AVB and MOTU 8M, but I think AVBs are all the same on the inside and when it comes to drivers ...?
- So far I could not find any round trip latency figures posted when used with PC (win10) via USB2 @96 kHz. Can anyone share? Latest drivers (still beta) claim to have significantly improved performance.
- While I'm intrigued by the features it offers, especially scalability via AVB / CAT5 cables, I'm a bit worried it might not be fully baked yet (beta drivers, B stock i.e. returned devices available for most AVB devices at Europe's biggest online retailer). Any comments regarding stability when used with Sonar on win10 (compared to RME) or encountered troubles (also when extended via AVB while connected via USB) are much welcome!
Thanks a lot, Rob
GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER +++ Visit the Rehab +++ DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600 Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture) Control-Surface: VS-700C VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really)
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/07/01 09:35:11
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Hi Rob,
With the release version drivers:
AVB series yields 4.9ms total round-trip latency at 64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k
The new beta drivers allow setting the "safety" buffer smaller.
Round-trip latency wise, the new MOTU AVB series is right on par with RME.
The noise-floor on the higher end AVB models is slightly lower than the RME UFX.
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jbraner
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/07/01 14:35:52
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The beta drivers work fine - and they will let the you go down to ridiculous latencies ( <1ms) but of course your computer will give up first ;-)
I have the Ultralite AVB, but as you said, I think all the AVB interfaces use the same driver.
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steveo42
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/07/01 15:20:01
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☄ Helpfulby Rob[at]Sound-Rehab 2016/07/02 05:35:53
Here are the figures from Reaper for the MOTU Ultralite AVB with the May 18th Beta Drivers and Firmware 1.2.7. I don't have the time to measure using Oblique or any of the other loop back tools but Reaper's numbers have been within 0.2ms or so of Oblique from past experience. What I did was load up Synthogy Ivory American D, every option on (1000 voices etc), balls to the walls. When I say Not Playable, I am saying you can't hit a single key without crackles. Truly unplayable.. My computer is optimized and the specs are in my sig. This is a wonderful sounding interface and is an absolute steal for the money IMHO. MOTU is not who I would think of as a Windows lover, at least from the past (I'm an old fart), but they are clearly writing excellent Windows drivers and from what I understand it's either done in house or with a subsidiary that they own which is unlike the typical canned drivers that other companies provide. Whatever they are doing, it's excellent. You can find MOTU reps on GS and they are always helpful and do listen to suggestions from users. For example the previous beta driver removed the ability to adjust the Safety Buffer. People screamed and MOTU quickly released an update with that feature enabled again. I like that. Besides, it's a riot laying in bed and linking to the MOTU mixer app from my iPhone and screwing around with it remotely. I dunno, just seems kinda cool to me. :) 44.1k Host Buffer Size Host Safety Offset RTL Reaper Comment 64 Samples 8 Samples 1.6ms / 1.6ms Not playable 64 Samples 12 Samples 1.7ms /1.7ms Not playable 64 Samples 16 Samples 1.8ms /1.8ms Not playable 64 Samples 24 Samples 1.8ms /1.8ms Playable 64 Samples 32 Samples 2.1ms / 2.1 ms Playable 64 Samples 48 Samples 2.5ms / 2.5 ms Playable 64 Samples 64 Samples 2.9ms / 2.9 ms Playable 64 Samples 128 Samples 4.3 ms / 4.3 ms Playable 64 Samples 256 Samples 7.2 ms / 7.2 ms Playable *Just did these two for fun* 128 Samples 48 Samples 3.9ms / 3,9 Playable 256 48 6.8ms /6.8 Playable Here is my system as sig didn't show: Intel Gigabyte Z97X-UD3H Intel 4790K 4.0 GHZ 16G Corsair Vengeance 2133 Memory. Samsung / PNY SSD for OS and Synthogy Ivory, qty 4 WD Black 7200 RPM drives. 2 Samsung 27 inch LED monitors Windows 10 Porfessional x64 Presonus Studio One V3 / Reaper / Protools 12 MOTU AVB Ultralite Event ASP8 Monitors Sonarworks- Room / Headphone correction software AKG Q701, ATH-M50x, Sony 7506, V6
post edited by steveo42 - 2016/07/01 15:46:03
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/07/01 16:32:39
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steveo42
64 Samples 24 Samples 1.8ms /1.8ms Playable
64 Samples 32 Samples 2.1ms / 2.1 ms Playable
64 Samples 48 Samples 2.5ms / 2.5 ms Playable
Thanks for posting those figures Steve! This is the range of "workable" (low) round-trip latency that I'd focus on. You can work effectively at these settings (depending on speed/configuration and load)
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/07/02 05:25:15
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Thanks all. That's excellent feedback. Much appreciated!
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steveo42
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/07/02 09:36:45
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Jim Roseberry
steveo42
64 Samples 24 Samples 1.8ms /1.8ms Playable
64 Samples 32 Samples 2.1ms / 2.1 ms Playable
64 Samples 48 Samples 2.5ms / 2.5 ms Playable
Thanks for posting those figures Steve!
This is the range of "workable" (low) round-trip latency that I'd focus on.
You can work effectively at these settings (depending on speed/configuration and load)
Yes, that is definitely the sweet spot!
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/16 03:02:59
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steveo42
Jim Roseberry
steveo42
64 Samples 24 Samples 1.8ms /1.8ms Playable
64 Samples 32 Samples 2.1ms / 2.1 ms Playable
64 Samples 48 Samples 2.5ms / 2.5 ms Playable
Thanks for posting those figures Steve!
This is the range of "workable" (low) round-trip latency that I'd focus on.
You can work effectively at these settings (depending on speed/configuration and load)
Yes, that is definitely the sweet spot!
I finally got a MOTU 1248 to test (just started testing really) and I'm getting impressive low latency. At 96 kHz the lowest setting for a "small" project with several Kontakt instruments that plays without any glitches is 128 samples buffer + 48 samples safety buffer (which is exactly double of what you reported for 44.1 kHz and makes sense). Sonar reports 3.7 ms RTL, which is roughly 1/3 of the lowest I could go with the Roland interface (9-10ms). Interestingly, Sonar reports RTL exactly as RTL = 2 * (host sample buffer + safety buffer) / 96 = (total sample buffer size) / 96 which looks like Sonar just estimates latency based on an equation. So I should presumably follow up with some measurements ...
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HighAndDry
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/17 13:45:13
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I have one coming tomorrow. ( a 1248) My only concern is the web based software. After reading the manual online and a couple reviews it appears that some features require using the internet. So I am going to ask the dumb question. Does the avb series require the web based app to use? I don't get it I guess.
Is there just a software app that manages ins and outs etc that does not require internet connection?
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/17 13:48:21
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You don't need to access the internet. Just connect the 1248's LAN port to your router.
MOTU chose to make the control panel LAN/Browser based... so the control-panel applet can be run from any computer/tablet/smart-phone.
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Drocket
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/17 13:55:03
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Jim Roseberry
You don't need to access the internet. Just connect the 1248's LAN port to your router.
MOTU chose to make the control panel LAN/Browser based... so the control-panel applet can be run from any computer/tablet/smart-phone.
Thanks goodness they did, it makes it way more accessable as Jim said. Loving my Ultralite AVB. Andrew.
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jbraner
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/17 14:18:42
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I love my Ultralite AVB too!
Here's a tip - give your interface a iphone address, rather than use DHCP - and it will be happier after it reboots from a firmware update ;-)
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Drocket
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/17 14:44:20
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Hi John,
Did you have issues doing the firmware update? I have only had mine about a month and I did the update first thing, it updated fine.
Andrew.
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soens
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/17 15:00:27
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OT but I'm trying to sell my MOTU and all of a sudden can't find the manual... so frazulating!
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jbraner
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/17 15:26:09
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Drocket, I found that when it rebooted, it couldn't pick up an ip address - it just hung. I just switched it off and on again and it was fine (but not updated). When I gave it a fixed ip address (now I always know what to point my browser to too) it worked fine, and I've done 3 or 4 updates this way.
post edited by jbraner - 2016/08/17 15:47:48
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HighAndDry
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/17 16:13:00
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Jim Roseberry
You don't need to access the internet. Just connect the 1248's LAN port to your router.
MOTU chose to make the control panel LAN/Browser based... so the control-panel applet can be run from any computer/tablet/smart-phone.
Ok. But what if I am at a place where I don't have a router or internet? Is there still a driver interface that just resides on my computer?
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HighAndDry
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/17 16:18:27
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Maybe I should not have ordered the avb series. I certainly see the benefits of running it from a smart phone etc. But! is the performance/latency at the mercy of internet or LAN speed? If so, that sucks big time.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/17 17:04:05
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HighAndDry
Jim Roseberry
You don't need to access the internet. Just connect the 1248's LAN port to your router.
MOTU chose to make the control panel LAN/Browser based... so the control-panel applet can be run from any computer/tablet/smart-phone.
Ok. But what if I am at a place where I don't have a router or internet? Is there still a driver interface that just resides on my computer?
yes. you install a driver and it installs a "web lookup" app of the MOTU device, which also finds the interface and allows adjustment of all settings even if it is only connected via USB (no LAN connections at all required if run and controlled from one DAW only). I'm still in the process of digging this unit - the routing options are great but also a bit complicated. will need some time to fully digest all of it ...
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HighAndDry
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/17 18:22:08
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Ok thank you all so much. I will probably be all over this thread. I am eager to get it. It arrives tomorrow. From the EM review I read, this is a complicated unit. Lot of capabilities.
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steveo42
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/17 19:02:20
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Drocket
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/18 01:35:03
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jbraner
Drocket,
I found that when it rebooted, it couldn't pick up an ip address - it just hung. I just switched it off and on again and it was fine (but not updated).
When I gave it a fixed ip address (now I always know what to point my browser to too) it worked fine, and I've done 3 or 4 updates this way.
Thanks John, I will keep that in mind if/when I have to do another update. Andrew.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/18 04:18:39
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steveo42
The videos are a good place to start to learn the routing which initially I found confusing, although very powerful. This page also contains the latest beta software. Make sure you have updated the firmware first and follow the directions to the letter.
http://www.motu.com/avb/index.html#avb-download-additional-resources
Mine came with the latest firmware installed - but it's easy to check if your DAW is connected to www. simple button click in the WebUI or also available from the MOTU discovery App, which is installed automatically and can be found among the taskbar popups ... I would assume it even alerts you of a new firmware (?) Make sure you download the latest drivers ( http://motu.com/download). Install the "Pro Audio" driver, which is still beta (last update v4.0 Jul 29, 2016). The routing tutorial videos are nice for showing what's possible, but until you get hands on, you don't fully grasp it. So this will take time to fully exploit it ... but the routing/mixer options were a key argument for ordering and checking out the AVB.
GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER +++ Visit the Rehab +++ DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600 Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture) Control-Surface: VS-700C VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really)
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jbraner
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/18 04:29:55
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So just to recap - using the internet and your router is only for things like downloading firmware updates, or configuring your MOTU with a phone or ipad. Otherwise, you just use a browser instead of a Windows (or Mac) app. The MOTU has to be attached to your PC (via USB) or it wouldn't produce any music - so you can access it via a browser over this USB connection (using the MOTU discovery App), or else you can attach to your PC (or via a router) with a ethernet cable and access it this way with your browser (just using normal ip address) EDIT - those new drivers are called "beta" but they're good. They've been around for at least three versions (of beta) for the last few months - and they work fine.
post edited by jbraner - 2016/08/18 04:55:50
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/18 04:30:35
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BTW - last night I tested for proper alignment of audio files (i.e. record latency compensation).
While my Roland interfaces were always spot on (i.e. did not require a manual offset), I had to apply +82 samples offset (@96kHz) to obtain proper alignment - anyone else seen that?
The required offset seems to be constant across different ASIO buffer settings, so it is fine to define once and leave it (see "Sonar Preferences / Sync and Caching / Manual Offset" at bottom of tab, set to +82, keep "Use ASIO Reported Latency" checked")
However, there is one potential pitfall: If you change the number of channels on the AVB to be sent from/to the computer, the interface name in Sonar changes (as it contains the number of I/O in the name). Hence, you will have to remember to redefine this in case you change the AVB to use more/fewer channels.
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steveo42
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/18 08:18:58
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Rob[atSound-Rehab]
steveo42
The videos are a good place to start to learn the routing which initially I found confusing, although very powerful. This page also contains the latest beta software. Make sure you have updated the firmware first and follow the directions to the letter.
http://www.motu.com/avb/index.html#avb-download-additional-resources
Mine came with the latest firmware installed - but it's easy to check if your DAW is connected to www. simple button click in the WebUI or also available from the MOTU discovery App, which is installed automatically and can be found among the taskbar popups ... I would assume it even alerts you of a new firmware (?)
Make sure you download the latest drivers (http://motu.com/download). Install the "Pro Audio" driver, which is still beta (last update v4.0 Jul 29, 2016).
The routing tutorial videos are nice for showing what's possible, but until you get hands on, you don't fully grasp it. So this will take time to fully exploit it ... but the routing/mixer options were a key argument for ordering and checking out the AVB.
1. The Beta drivers don't show up when you click the update button from the GUI. At least not as of the last version. I'll check again when a newer beta gets released. 2. What I did, was have the GUI opened on my other monitor as I watched the videos so I could duplicate what was being presented in real time. This is how I remember it best. YMMV as different people have different methods of learning material. Either way it will definitely take time although I don't think it's as complex as RME TotalMix :)
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/18 15:55:02
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HighAndDry
Ok thank you all so much. I will probably be all over this thread. I am eager to get it. It arrives tomorrow. From the EM review I read, this is a complicated unit. Lot of capabilities.
I'd be amazed if you didn't like the 1248. - Great fidelity
- Great low-latency performance
- Extremely flexible
- Solid drivers
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steveo42
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/18 16:27:16
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I agree Jim.. MOTU has an excellent set of interfaces with these AVB units.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/19 07:34:04
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steveo42
2. What I did, was have the GUI opened on my other monitor as I watched the videos so I could duplicate what was being presented in real time. This is how I remember it best. YMMV as different people have different methods of learning material.
Either way it will definitely take time although I don't think it's as complex as RME TotalMix :)
One thing to be aware of, though logical once you know: you should not try to change the routing while Sonar playback is running ... which is logical when it comes to I/O channels between Sonar and the AVB. However, it also applies to the internal AVB routing. I had tried to set up monitor routing using the internal AVB mixer DSP while having sound from Sonar sent to the interface (like you would do in a live show environment, e.g. ok Analog IN 3 is receiving the bass signal, let's route it to MIX IN 3 ...). It took me awhile to figure why I just don't get any output, but apparently you need to make all routing decisions before opening Sonar, or at least apply changes by opening the AVB web interface via Sonar audio preferences to have them accepted. While playback is running, it keeps throwing changes away when closing the web interface ... which is good as it provides safety and stability as in multi-control environment from several PCs, Phones, tablets, etc.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/23 00:48:26
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Really impressed with what I tested so far ... - Great routing options (now that I understand how it works)
- Internal latency only 0.6 msec (e.g. if analog IN 1 is routed to analog OUT 2 while also grabbing the feed to record it in Sonar, perfect for sneaking the MOTU into a chain without causing an noticable latency)
- I can play K5 Abbey Road drums or AD2 via the e-drum kit at ridiculously lower buffers (64 samples + 48 safety @ 96 kHz) which translates to truly imperceptible latency (something I could not do on any interface I owned before)
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steveo42
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Re: MOTU AVB series
2016/08/23 08:08:46
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One thing I noticed with my AVB is that once in a while the MOTU app in the taskbar tray won't start when clicked on. Also occasionally I was getting an "ASIO Buffers Can Not Be Set" message once in a while when starting Reaper or Studio One (different message, same result, no interface).
This was VERY intermittent.
I traced this down to having Fast Boot turned on in Windows 10. It started after the Anniversary Update so evidently that update turned it back on as I did have it turned off prior to the update. I did turn it off again and have not seen the message since. My boot drive is an SSD so it's ridiculously fast anyway.
I'll continue to monitor but thought I would mention it in case anyone else has the problem.
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