MP3 encoder sounds terrible

Wow.  Home user results tend to vary - and folks do it differently.
 
I'd ask first if you did a stereo mixdown first.  Some say that it is not absolute, but different devices act differently.
 
Brian

Try setting bit rate to 192. Other than that, it looks like you use same settings as I do. I'm not sure about dither or that it matters much. As far as mix sounding different such as bass missing, make sure you have the correct source bus/tracks selected. Under source/category try selecting main outs and select the outs connected to your speakers. One other thing, make sure you have nothing selected in track view otherwise Sonar will only output selected material. I'm still using Sonar 7 but I think all this still applies. If all is done correct, you should have a difficult time hearing a difference between wave and mp3 export.

Uh-not here-Sounds great-I'll check my settings later on also-not near my stuff right now. Hope you get it. I'll post back later.

stevec


If the wave export sounds good, I'd import that into a new project and then try exporting to MP3.  That way you can focus on the Wave>MP3 conversion by itself and not have to worry about track routing, etc.    IOW, one step at a time.
 

thats a great quick fix idea but essentialy the encoder should work.and im finding problems with encoding also.theres got to be a reasonable explaination for this.because ive had mp3's come out perfect,then on a remix sound like popcorn

I use the Lame Encoder and am always happy with the results - friends can't tell the difference between the MP3s and the original .wavs.  I always use full-tilt 320 bit rate, which I guess a lot of people don't, since they make larger MP3s - but they're still very small in comparison to .wavs, like always under 10 megs for a 3 minute song.

RB

FWIW, any time I've found an mp3 export sounding 'off', it's always been a case of user error.

The encoder in Sonar is actually the Lame encoder.

You need to check your settings very carefully when exporting, and make sure you do have all the correct audio selected.

One thing you can also try (and eliminate Sonar from the picture) is to download the Lame encoder from here - http://lame.buanzo.com.ar/
and Audacity from http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
Set up Audacity to use your newly downloaded Lame encoder.

Now, when you export your .Wav from Sonar, you can pull the .Wav into Audacity and export as mp3 from Audacity.  That eliminates Sonar from the equation, and gives you something to compare with your mp3 export from Sonar.

I always export my mp3s directly from Sonar - I like the interface, it's straight forward and easy to use, and in my opinion well
worth the $20 I paid.

As far as the settings go - well, quite frankly I think the quality of mp3 is pretty sucky for music - especially below 192 Kbps.

I consider 128 Kbps too low - and at that bit rate or lower, other settings are likely to have quite an effect on the sound quality of the resulting mp3.

It's really much much better to go 192 Kbps minimum - the increase to 192 can make a MASSIVE difference.

When you go as low as 128 kbps, you need to look at some other settings - can't remember exactly what off the top of my head.
I did quite a barage of mp3 conversion tests some time ago and made some notes about settings and quality.
I'll try and dig them up later when I get back to my DAW and post them here.

I export mp3 at:
320 kbps
best quality
dither=Pow2

I'll export at settings lower than 320 Kbps reluctantly, only if absolutely necessary because of some restrictions I have no control over.


Initially, I'd suggest just trying the same export at 320 Kbps, Best Quality - and if that sounds really crappy then it's most likely you've got something else wrong.

Cheers - Cliff

cliffr


FWIW, any time I've found an mp3 export sounding 'off', it's always been a case of user error.

The encoder in Sonar is actually the Lame encoder.

You need to check your settings very carefully when exporting, and make sure you do have all the correct audio selected.

One thing you can also try (and eliminate Sonar from the picture) is to download the Lame encoder from here - http://lame.buanzo.com.ar/
and Audacity from http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
Set up Audacity to use your newly downloaded Lame encoder.

Now, when you export your .Wav from Sonar, you can pull the .Wav into Audacity and export as mp3 from Audacity.  That eliminates Sonar from the equation, and gives you something to compare with your mp3 export from Sonar.

I always export my mp3s directly from Sonar - I like the interface, it's straight forward and easy to use, and in my opinion well
worth the $20 I paid.

As far as the settings go - well, quite frankly I think the quality of mp3 is pretty sucky for music - especially below 192 Kbps.

I consider 128 Kbps too low - and at that bit rate or lower, other settings are likely to have quite an effect on the sound quality of the resulting mp3.

It's really much much better to go 192 Kbps minimum - the increase to 192 can make a MASSIVE difference.

When you go as low as 128 kbps, you need to look at some other settings - can't remember exactly what off the top of my head.
I did quite a barage of mp3 conversion tests some time ago and made some notes about settings and quality.
I'll try and dig them up later when I get back to my DAW and post them here.

I export mp3 at:
320 kbps
best quality
dither=Pow2

I'll export at settings lower than 320 Kbps reluctantly, only if absolutely necessary because of some restrictions I have no control over.


Initially, I'd suggest just trying the same export at 320 Kbps, Best Quality - and if that sounds really crappy then it's most likely you've got something else wrong.

Cheers - Cliff

Good catch, Cliff - I think he's right, Steve, that you're saying that you're trying to go directly from a mix to MP3.  In your original post you said that going down to .wav sounds good, but doing an MP3 doesn't. 

You want to create your high quality 2-track master as a .wav file first.  That's your master, your archive file.  Then you make an MP3 from that master - and as has been reiterated several times now on this thread, you want to stick with 320 for your bit rate.  128 is ka-ka SoundClick quality. 

There's no need, in my opinion, to try custom fitting each mix for a different MP3 profile - just simply always make the highest quality MP3 possible. 

Variable Bit Rate is interesting, and many people champion it since it does literally what the name implies - it keeps changing the bit rate according to the material its processing.  But for some reason I've had difficulties with VBR MP3s - they often end up displaying totally incorrect times, like a 3 minute song will appear to be 3 times that length during playback.  I'll have an MP3 with several minutes of dead air at the end of it.  Don't know what the deal is with that, so I've stopped trying VBR MP3s--maybe someone here understands what the problem is I've had with those.

RB

rbowser


I use the Lame Encoder and am always happy with the results - friends can't tell the difference between the MP3s and the original .wavs.  I always use full-tilt 320 bit rate, which I guess a lot of people don't, since they make larger MP3s - but they're still very small in comparison to .wavs, like always under 10 megs for a 3 minute song.

RB

Ditto in every way including 320 mp3

You want to create your high quality 2-track master as a .wav file first.  That's your master, your archive file.  Then you make an MP3 from that master

^^^^ THIS should eliminate all of the OP's problems.

+1

tarsier


Only use variable bit rate encoding (VBR)...

Hi, Tarsier - Sounds like you're the guy who could know why I have problems with VBR MP3s.  -Every time I try that, I end up with MP3s that have a big chunk of dead air after the end of the song.  Looking at Windows Media Player, I can see the progress bar - the song is ending somewhere around the 1/2 way mark, the file keeps going- and the file size is twice what it should be because of all that dead air.  Every time I've experimented with VBR that happens.  --What the...?

Back to SteveXN, the OP - you really need to finish your project as a .wav file.  Then make your MP3 from that - Going directly from Sonar to MP3 is not only causing you problems, but you're not ending up with an archive file of your work.  Get your mix right first, not just when playing back in Sonar, but as a 2-track master.   And as people are explaining on this thread, the mix level has to be a bit lower for an MP3 or you'll get clipping.

Randy B.

WDI


Not that anyone cares, but...

IMO, 320 bit rate is overkill for MP3. The whole point of MP3 is to make the file size small. 192 seems to be a good balance between sound quality and file size. To me it's similar to a sample rate of 44 vs 192. Is the sound quality that much difference vs overhead?

I don't think this is a fair comparison: With good converters, 44.1Khz will sound identical to 192Khz because essentially, within the audible band it is identical.  192Kbps and 320 Kbps MP3s are not identical within the audible band. Depending on the quality of the converter and the material, you might hear differences between 192 Kbps and 320 Kbps. At 320 Kbps, unless your encoder is broken, it should be indistinguishable from the full PCM source.

Another difference between sampling rates and MP3s is that MP3s only use a bit more storage space but don't cause any more stress on the player while higher sampling rates for a full project will cause a lot more stress on the DAW. (Actually, it is easier to encode and decode 320 Kbps than 192Kbps!)

That said, most people won't be able to tell the difference between an MP3 encoded at 192Khz and the original source so if you are happy with that, why not? Anything below 192Khz is easily distinguishable from the source and IMO should be avoided.

As to the OP's question: I never encode in Sonar. I always export a full quality wave file and encode with a free external encoder like CDex.

UnderTow

tarsier

VBR MP3s. -Every time I try that, I end up with MP3s that have a big chunk of dead air after the end of the song.

How are you creating those mp3s? Which encoder and version specifically, and which version of WMP is it? Did you try other media players? Other encoders?

Thanks for the reply, Tarsier - When I make an MP3 with Sonar, I use Lame Encoder v. 3.97.   Outside of Sonar, I use Sony MP3 v.3.

In both cases, I only make MP3s from 2-track .wav masters, never directly from a project's mix.

My Windows Media Player is version 11.0.6.  I prefer using VLC because I've never found a file type it can't play.  It's version 1.0.3

I haven't worried about the odd VBR problem though, because even though it may be more than is needed, I know the 320 bit MP3s always sound great, and they're plenty small enough, so I've just left it at that.

Randy B.

UnderTow

WDI


Not that anyone cares, but...

IMO, 320 bit rate is overkill for MP3. The whole point of MP3 is to make the file size small. 192 seems to be a good balance between sound quality and file size. To me it's similar to a sample rate of 44 vs 192. Is the sound quality that much difference vs overhead?

I don't think this is a fair comparison: With good converters, 44.1Khz will sound identical to 192Khz because essentially, within the audible band it is identical.  192Kbps and 320 Kbps MP3s are not identical within the audible band. Depending on the quality of the converter and the material, you might hear differences between 192 Kbps and 320 Kbps. At 320 Kbps, unless your encoder is broken, it should be indistinguishable from the full PCM source.

Another difference between sampling rates and MP3s is that MP3s only use a bit more storage space but don't cause any more stress on the player while higher sampling rates for a full project will cause a lot more stress on the DAW. (Actually, it is easier to encode and decode 320 Kbps than 192Kbps!)

That said, most people won't be able to tell the difference between an MP3 encoded at 192Khz and the original source so if you are happy with that, why not? Anything below 192Khz is easily distinguishable from the source and IMO should be avoided.

As to the OP's question: I never encode in Sonar. I always export a full quality wave file and encode with a free external encoder like CDex.

UnderTow

That's not entirely true. 192Khz picks up frequencies well above the human hearing spectrum that manifest themselves in sub-harmonics within the audible range of humans. 44.1Khz does not pick up those frequencies. But, that's for another discussion for another time.

Coming in a bit late, but I initially had issues with the encoder from Sonar and found a few things made a difference:

1) My mixing left a little to be desired, I rolled back and redid all my EQs because of bad monitor/room setup.
2) I bumped up to 192 from 128, and it made a huge difference.  Not sure if I'd go to 320 for an MP3, but I may try it.
3) The idea above of a 2-track master WAV is probably a good way to go, minimally for process flow and efficiency, and then go to MP3.

Essentially, the mix and 192 bit rate made the big difference for me.