Mackie MCU and Sonar 7 Producer

Hey guys,
PLEASE forgive me if this was answered elsewhere - my apologies if it was:
(BTW, I'm running Sonar 7, Producer latest patch)

I could really use some help -

I just purchased a Mackie MCU (standard model, not the pro, which has an internal MIDI I/O, with USB input) this one uses an external MIDI interface. ......and I'm having a heck of a time trying to get it to work - I had three wisdom teeth out today, so was really hoping to get this working tonight to make music and get my mind off my mouth. (it smarts) - (good drugs though! LOL)

Anyway here is the lowdown -
The Mackie boots properly (I thinki) but as there are NO manuals that come with it - (Whats up with that???) I have no idea if its performing a valid power up boot test (Its showing Software version 2.1 on the MCU at boot)

It runs through the the fader calibrate, but none of the indicators test - not sure if that is normal or not)

I'm running Sonar into a Midiman 2X2, with the latest 2X2 drivers, and that seems to work fine - Both of the LEDS's (in and Out) are active, when I turn the jog wheel, I see output from the MCU going into the USB MIDI interface and if I plug the MCU into the appropriate interface (either A or B) and then set a MIDI program to go out on that interface, I get flashing lights on the MCU when data is transmitted out from Sonar, so I'm pretty sure the interface and its Vista drivers are not at fault. Sonar just indicates "connecting......" in the control surface status window, so I don;t think there is a proper handshake going on. Does it need to send/receive on a particular channel that needs to be set?? Am I missing something?? Nothing is apparent that points me in that direction. Frankly, I'm flabbergasted that Mackie would not include a robust manual, either hard copy or PDF. I just don't know why the MCU won't talk properly to Sonar and vice versa! Everything I'v'e read indicates that its a complete no brainer compatibility wise.


Any and all thoughts and ideas would be ever so greatly appreciated.

Cindy

You are going to love your new MC if you need any more help I am here.

Hi John and Mike,

Thank you so much for getting back with me - this has really been maximally frustrating - I thought it would be a no brainer, just:
go out to Options/Controllers Surfaces, select the Mackie Controller-1 from the drop down, turn on the appropriate MIDI interface, connect the cables and it would all be mapped, pretty and ready to go. Since last night, I did a systems check, to ensure that the MIDI interface, cables, and the MCU were all happy campers, so I downloaded the demo version of Mackie Tracktion (boy is that an U-G-L-Y GUI! Whew!) But it tested positive, all functions on the MCU worked like a charm, the transport transported, the jog wheel did its thing, I figured that was a pretty effective end to end check. So back I went to Sonar 7 - I even reloaded it, as well as both current patches, taking it to 7.0.2. I though perhaps, I might have not clicked a needed option when I installed it originally, So.... I re-lit the fuse, thinking...ok, its GOTTA work now! well errrrm nope. So then I got the bright idea, maybe I have to turn on ACT and teach it where everything is......... So I enabled ACT and started punching buttons. It seems to have learned that I didn't try and attach a refrigerator to the interface.... I do have signs of life, the jog wheel now talks to the Now time display on the MCU (but not on the NOW time in Sonar) On the transport, the rewind and FF work, again they don't do anything as far as Sonar is concerned, but they do run the numbers back and forth in the MCU display. Start is dead, Record is dead. The V pots are now active on the MCU but have no functionality in Sonar. But the pots do now make the pan LED's move - but again just on the MCU - select buttons do nothing at the channel strips, mute and solo work and solo now lights the rude solo light as well - Record ready lights at strips 1-5 but don't do squat. Ummm lets see what else. Most of the indicators on the right side are now lighting, . Again, I see data passing from the MCU to the MIDI interface, when buttons are pushed etc The nice thing about the Midiman interfaces is those big old LED's for send and receive activity . One other check that I made - I took a MIDI sequence and sent it out on the MCU interface, which did get lights moving on the MCU, so again, I verified that there was communication between Sonar and the MCU.

Whew! I just can't think of any other checks that I can make - I just know that this HAS to be one of those <duh> things where its some little clicky box that isn't checked, or I'm not telling it the right commands.. and I'm going to feel like a total idiot.

Oh yeah, the scribble strip, just has the generic "Mackie Control Universal - for Emagic Logic Audio on it -no scribbles. Of course that is after the boot sequence.

Again I can't thank you enough for your thoughts - I don't know if Support can weigh in on this on Monday or not. I just wanna make my music!! Aaaaarrggh!

Huggs,
Cyn

Hi John,
yup, ensured that the MCU was up and ready before starting Sonar.
Went out BTW, downloaded another demo (Ableton) and again just as the Mackie Traction - it ran flawlessly - everything working as it should (except the scribble strip is still kaput). Just went back over to Sonar - dead deadski to/from the MCU. Unless there is some sort of a wierd bug with Sonar running in Vista service pack 1 - But MIDI data is such a defined and simple protocol that I just can't see that as an issue - And I'm quite certain I'm not the only person running Sonar 7.0.2 in Vista SP1
This is making me nuts.

I turned ACT back off as well.

What can possibly be so different with Sonar that it won't talk to the MCU and vice versa? Having tried two other DAWS and they both work perfectly -- I'm frankly, at a loss.

The crazy thing is that a MIDI stream is just serial data, and nothing special. I didn't have to tell Ableton much more than the the control surface is Mackie and what MIDI device to use. My head is beginning to spin around like Linda Blair.

Cyn

John,
thank you So much for helping me with this.

I could shoot some screen shots too, if that would help.

Under Options:
<Controllers>
<Controllers/Surfaces>

The dialog reads:
Controller/Surface is set to Mackie Controll-1
In Port is set to: In USB Midi 1X1
Out Port is set to: Out USB Midi 1X1

A is grayed out
W is checked

WAI Display
is set:
Track View and Console View

John,

I just notied something - and I think its a clue -

When Sonar is engaged, the MIDI interface MIDI OUT port, which is of course MIDI data out of the computer via USB from the computer, goes basically nuts - Its transmitting data very rapidly with no input - it should be very quiet, or perhaps just a slow heartbeat, and only show data when a change is made by Sonar, outbound to the MCU. I checked and verified my theory with both Ableton and Traction - the interface is quiet, unless I'm transmitting data out, like moving a fader on the GUI or any other control movement. For some reason, I think that the MIDI Out from the computer (via USB) is being flooded with noise and garbage, which the MCU can't deal with (obviously) I verified that continuous flood of data (which literally causes the MIDI IN indicator (LED) to flash at probably a 15 - 20 hertz rate. Now the problem comes down to what is it in the Sonar config that is causing that anomaly? There are 3 LEDS on the Midiman 1X1 interface, one is to show connectivity, and it just slowly pulses on and off, almost like a heart beat, another LED for data present (MIDI IN) and one for data present (MIDI Out) - Of course the Midiman 2X2 has 5 LED's one for "heartbeat and LEDS for each of the two interfaces themself. Both of these interfaces are M-Audio Midiman's I wonder if Sonar is choking on a compatibility bug with the interface, that other DAW's don't have a problem with. I wonder if Sonar is doing something peculiar with its internal handling of MIDI, that would be peculiar to that particular interface??? Both interfaces, (the 1X1 and the 2X2 exhibit the same condition (rapid pulse) , when configured to talk to the MCU (It does not do it when I tell it to just process MIDI output data from a track.) ......Its got to be a code bug.

I wonder if anyone else is using the M-Audio interface, with Vista 32 bit, running Sonar 7??

This really is smelling more and more like a Sonar bug

Cyn

http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.family&ID=midiinterfaces

Oh god,
I'm still on pain meds from getting the wisdom teeth extracted yesterday - please forgive my typos :-p

When the MC and Sonar start up they communicate with one another. This may be what you are seeing. Because they can't seem to make a connection it just continues. Be sure again you have all your MIDI ports up and running and the MC attached the proper in and out ports. Then be sure that Sonar has the right ports selected for the MC.

As to Vista I can't answer that part. But you have done the diagnostics that seem to prove that your connection is working. If I were you I would keep the Control Surfaces connection dialog box open and try different ports until you hit the right one. The MC should immediately respond.


What ever don't get upset. It will work. It will work just like it does in the other apps only better. You are going love it.

All I ask here is read what I am saying very carefully. Follow it and it will work.

Thank you John,
MUCH appreciated - I'm taking everything you are saying, and running with it.

I'll keep working it till we get it to complete the handshake. I would like to see that connection window again though. Not sure where that went.

Cyn

Good Morning John,

Ah, another beautiful, albeit cloudy and cool day in the great Pacific Northwest (we have te happiest slugs in the country up here :) )

Gonna fight with this a little bit more this morning, then I have music to make, albeit, with the rodent and keyboard :p


Here we go:

To Connect the Mackie Control (or XT) to SONAR:


Before you turn on the Mackie Control (or XT), connect MIDI cables from its MIDI OUT port to your MIDI interface's MIDI IN port, and from its MIDI IN port to your MIDI interface's MIDI OUT port.

* Check and Set.

Turn on the Mackie Control (or XT).

* check and set

Launch SONAR.

*Check and set

Use the Options-Control Surfaces command to open the Control Surfaces dialog.

* Check and set

Click the Add button , which opens the Control Surface Settings dialog.

* Check and Set

In the Control Surface field, use the drop-down menu to select the Mackie Control option

* Check and set

(if you're connecting a Mackie XT instead, select Mackie Control XT).

* N/A

In the Input Port field, select the MIDI port that you want the Mackie Control (or XT) to send data to SONAR through.

* Check and set to MIDIMan 1X1 (INPUT)

In the Output Port field, select the MIDI port that you want the Mackie Control (or XT) to receive data from SONAR through.

* Check and Set (MIDIMan 1X1 (Output)

Click OK--the Mackie Control name appears in the Control Surfaces dialog under Connected Surfaces.

* Check as Set

Click Close.

* Check and Set

The Mackie Control's faders should snap to the positions of your SONAR track volume settings.

* No acknowledgment from MCU, MIDIMan OUT data lamp flashes at 15-20 hz rate, attempting handshake with MCU - unsuccesful


Move some of the Mackie Control faders and watch the SONAR volume settings change.

* Unsuccessful - no ACK from MCU

If the settings don't change, try disconnecting the Mackie Control and then reconnecting: see below.

* Check and Set, repeated several times, with two different interfaces, and changed USB ports on the 'puter as well - Ran onboard PC operating system diagnostics on the interface, reported as working properly - however did a reinstall of both the drivers and the interface(s) - searched the M-Audio help files for other people reporting similar issues with the interface, using Vista, SP 1 with Sonar - None found. Performed Google search - No issues found. Drivers for both both the 1X1 and the 2X2 interfaces certified for Vista O.S.

Replaced both MIDI cables to preclude a marginal or noisy cable transmitting garbage that Sonar may be more sensitive to:

* negative

Reran both of the subject demo versions:

* No issues - MCU works as advertised - all functions available, handshake succesful between DAW software and the MCU.

Its too bad this stuff doesn't transmit and receive via TCP/IP rather than MIDI - that should really be the next step, - to begin to migrate everything to TCP/IP - an entire studio could be run on fast ethernet, or if you really wanted to rock, GigE - I think there is some migration to that already in studios - Crykey, you could, if it was done properly, use 802.11g to run an entire studio securely on wireless, using standard TCP/IP routers and switches. now that would totally rock, an entire studio, and not a cable in sight, with fully encrypted data flow!!!!


Of course, that doesn't solve my current dilemma, but its stellar on the road-map.



To Disconnect the Mackie Control from SONAR
Use the Options-Control Surfaces command to open the Control Surfaces dialog.
In the Control Surface column, select Mackie Control so that it is highlighted.
Click the Delete button .
Click Close.
SONAR disconnects the Mackie Control.

* Attempted several repeats of the connect/disconnect/connect per the above procedure.


Have a wonderful day! ( Would barely know that I had those &^%$ wisdom teeth out a few days ago (Friday), I feel stellar, - can't wait to be able to eat something besides OATMEAL though! A pizza would taste SO good! Even for breakfast!


~ Cyn

Hi John,

Well we are right in sync!

I just tried a final test -
I tried using my Roland VS2480CD as a control surface - Sonar treats it the same way, can't find it, keeps sending a handshake, with no Ack.

So - went out to Traction, it found the Roland immediately, and I taught it a few commands (faders, and transport) it acknowledged each command (faders 1-16 + the transport) and although not bi-directional (i.e. data from the Traction DAW to the Roland, it did take commands from the Roland, going to the Traction DAW). Bi-directional was not an option with a generic surface that you have to program. None the less data flows smoothly.

Then I tried it with the Ableton demo DAW -Again, it works as it should - ACK'ing and controlling the faders on the DAW, from the Roland.

I can really think of no other variables - it has to be a code bug, in the Sonar handler, for the M-Audio MIDIman interface, when used in the Controller/Surface mode. The only other MIDI interface that I have is on the E-Mu 1212M audio card, however that requires a mini-DIN to DIN adapter (X2), which I lack - and I'm nervous about using the interface anyway, as the E-Mu driver has twice caused a VISTA blue screen of death (Iv'e seen lots of B.S.of D before, but not with Vista, early XP yeah, but not after SP 2). It was so ugly that Vista had to do a roll-back and de-installed the 1212M driver! Nyassty!

I have one last trick up my sleeve - I have Sonar 5 loaded on my laptop......... albeit, its not 7, but its running XP-Pro - I don't want to load 7 on it and violate the EULA. If that works, then we have it nailed down to a S/W/ bug in Sonar 7 running in the Vista O.S. transmitting to and from the M-Audio MIDIMan interface, when used in the Controller/Surface mode of operation. Were I a developer at Twelve Tone, that is the code module I would be looking at.

Standby, I'll let you know the results of the lap-top/Mackie/Sonar test using the same interface (M-Audio 1X1)

~ Cyn

Well, as Alice said,
this is getting curiouser and curiouser -

Exact same situation on the laptop:

Win XP SP2
Latest M-Audio driver for the MIDI Sport 1X1 - fresh install of driver MA_CMIDI_V32_4.300 on the O.S.
Sonar Version is 5

as soon as I tell Sonar the interface to use, it starts to look for an ACK from the MCU,
Controller/Surface windows again show:

Mackie Control & "Connecting.... "

the MCU refuses to send back the ACK and its dead to the world.

Now we are seeing the identical symptoms on another O.S. and Sonar version (5)

I have a hunch that were I to load another DAW on the laptop, everything would be copasetic.

Well, tell ya John, no one can accuse us of of slip-shod analysis, on a problem - i think this is going to be a bug fix. I will call the help desk tomorrow, and point them at this thread, and also see if I can scare up an engineer at M-Audio.

Will likely also contact the Mackoids just down the road from me in Woodinville (I'm in Issaquah)

Unless you have any other thoughts, and lacking the ability to get into the source code, for any of the above, I am, as they say, out of airspeed, altitude, and ideas.


I frik'n HATE S/W bugs...they make me insane, and it usually comes down to something in the syntax, or a loop without an exit statement (my suspicion of whats going on) like an If then, else statement, with the pointer either going to the wrong place, or the statement is malformed, or a flag isn't being set, when using the MIDIMan interface. Lucky me, to find a bug - par for the course though (uggh)





~ Cyn

Yeah,

I think its the MIDIMan too. II have the barfy green one two, with the latest Vista drivers, and the 1X1 is sort of a clear plastic on top, with a black base, again, latest drivers. Something is just plain wierd with the M-Audio interfaces! Something that Sonar needs and the other DAW's don't nor does the Roland VS2480CD configured as a surface. The MCU Pro of course has its own interface, so you eliminate the need for an external one. The MIDIMan is the common link in the problem chain, when used with Sonar. Rats!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll go out to the Sweetwater site and see what i can scare up in a non M_Audio MIDI interface -maybe MOTU?? Another thought is firewire instead of USB. Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrggghhhh!!!


~Cyn

Hi Cyn

MCUs work in different modes, you said earlier that it displays E Magic Logic Audio in the scribble strip which is mode 2, you need to change the mode to mode 1. The link is to the pdf manual for the original MCU go to page 3 and see the heading "Changing Modes"

http://www.mackie.com/pdf/MCU_QS.pdf

hope this works, it does work well in Sonar, just wish sonar would let you use the jog wheel during play back to scroll to differnt now times like in other DAWs.

good luck

Matt

MJW, You Sir,
are a steely eyed missile man!!!!!!!!


That did it!!!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU HUG HUGG HUGGG

YIPPPEEEEEEEEEEEE YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Whooo hooo!!

Isn't it amazing what a manual can do for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As soon as I reset the mode it took off like a heard of rabbits! That was it John! OMG, Even the scribble strip is indicating properly! W00t!! I am now going to celebrate with a ---- glass of orange juice (as I can't have wine cause I'm still on all kinds of stuff from the wisdom teeth being pulled)

John, you are right! its GORGEOUS!!!! All they would have had to do is give me a manual with this unit, and John and I wouldn't have wasted copius amounts of time trying to think of what could possible be the problem!

Perhaps this thread will help some other poor soul who is lost in the woods, not fall into the same situation.

You are both my friends for life!

Going to now make some music (after I put everything away that I have pulled out, in the process of troubleshooting this! - No one can accuse us of not sticking to a problem!! )

Huggs again guys!!! You definitely rock :-)

~Cyn