spacey


Those that don't know theory carry on as if those that do don't play with feel or by ear...
well that's just BS. Knowledge of how it works in combination with a "player" only increases
his chances of stating his/her ideas. 

Spacey, do you really think that's true? You don't think some guys that know theory (not all, but quite a few) are so wrapped up with it that their phrasing and melody abilities suffer or are pretty much non-existent?
 
Look at you man...you are a prime example of someone that knows a lot of theory yet plays with heart. I've always enjoyed your music and your soloing abilities. But as much theory as you know, YOU never come off sounding like a robot or that you just threw a math equation together. You're one of the guys that took the theory and learned how to use it...and guys like you, I truly respect. But there are so many others that just look at what they can do inside a progression and it literally sounds like they analyzed it instead of feeling it out, ya know what I mean? Like...they talk in scales instead of melody and phrasing. See, you don't have that problem so you can't even be included. LOL! You're in the elite class and I mean that in the best, respectful way. :)
 
-Danny 

For sure...total respect and admiration on this end as well man. :)

I'm totally with you. You know Spacey, I guess it all depends on who we run into in life and who is around us, ya know what I mean? I totally agree on the basic theory thing. I think everyone should at least have a clue as to the basics and if they decide to go further, God Bless them. I wish I had the desire and determination for that. For myself though, I noticed that the more theory I learned, the more I lost my way...if that makes sense? I'm think I'm a pretty smart guy when I need to be..lol..but this theory thing sort of became a crutch for me and part of that was due to the whole 80's metal guitar era ruining it for me as well.

You know how that whole thing went....guitar was more about acrobatics and guitar olympics than actually playing for the song. I mean granted, I can't deny that quite a few of those guys were/are heros of mine that have inspired me and are great players. But for a guy like me...I went about it all wrong and just felt I was better when I didn't know as much and just sort of hacked my way to creativity. LOL! That's really the best way I can describe it in my case.

And I'm one of those guys that says exactly what you mentioned about some theory guys not having the feel. I think we're both right to be honest and again...it's a matter of who we may have come in contact with in our lives, ya know? Like for example, I had a friend of mine who I thought was such a great natural player. He decided to go to GIT. When he came back...he was actually worse in my opinion. Like, all the heart and soul he had was replaced with systematically disecting progressions and playing scales without bends etc. It was just like...he became this theory genius which I admired him for...but the playing didn't translate right.

I had another friend that came out of GIT the same exact way. It took him nearly 5 years to get all the stuff he had learned into shape to add into his style. Now THAT guy...totally scary, loaded with feel and someone I'd be afraid to even jam with. So some of them definitely get it right...but then there are others that just sort of lose their way. Then again, there are others like you said who just talk BS about people that do know theory. I know quite a few of those guys too...and most of them talk like that out of jealousy. I can assure you I'm jealous of those who have grasped the whole theory concept...but when I make a mention of them playing without feel, that's not my jealousy talking....that my ears telling me "ok, you learned well...but man, lose the robot antics!" Hahahaha! :) I'm totally with you though.

-Danny 

MakeShift


Last night I was at my 11 year old daughters piano lesson.  The teacher went into this "history of music" speach going through the 1700, then into the 1800's (The Romantic Era) and after 10 minutes of this I could n't take it any more.  She was slumped over in the chair and paying NO attention to him.  I finally said, Jerry, she's not really interested in musical history right now, she only want's to learn how to play Hey Jude right now on the piano.  He looked at me kind of dumb founded and then at her, and then he said, "I'm glad you spoke up".

Therory or at least some basic therory is absolutely neccessary for anyone who wants to play an instrument, but knowing what you want to play, or are trying to express is equally important.  It's like painting.  You need to know what colors make what colors when you mix them together.  You could do a paint by number and it will technically look good....but to paint something original....you kind of need to have an image in your head of what you are trying to accomplish.

OMG Mike, that was so me in just about everything I've ever had to learn. LOL! I have the attention span of a gnat even when it's something I truly love. If it gets too far out there, I just totally lose interest. I wish I wasn't like that, I really do. I think I'd be much smarter...especially in school. I did well in school but some of it was a struggle because of the lack of interest. You know how it goes...some things just don't appeal to us when we think or know we won't ever use them in a real life situation. Heck, I think that's what's wrong with a lot of the schools today....they worry about a cirriculum that soo needs a re-write for today's times. Granted, some things are good for us to test our memory skills etc...but there's nothing worse than being forced to learn about something you may not be interested in. As much as I love music and it's become a way of life for me, there are some parts of it that I don't find as interesting.
 
I've always kinda been like that with theory. What has always worked for me though is...someone says "ok, here is a scale" or whatever. And then they say "now here are 3-5 ways to use it". Then I learn because it makes sense to me. Kinda like a martial arts move. If we just show a student how to punch without studying punching drills, focus and proper target practice, it's just a punch the way it was taught, ya know? When I put my mind to something and all the stuff I'm interested in is before me, then I dive in and it makes me want to investigate a bit more into it. But when it's the other way around and this stuff is just thrown at me without much of a purpose at the time, then it just loses me. But...you know how it goes...everyone is different. We all have different thresholds in which we take things in as well as different goals and desires. Whatever works. On that note...sheesh, I've been posting like bapu this morning....I need to go home and get some sleep. LOL! Been here since 6 pm last night...uggh! Talk to you guys soon. :)
 
-Danny

Personally I listen, I understand then I play.

We play mainly covers, but I refuse to learn the exaçt solos, unless its a specific harmony. I play what i feel. Our other guitarist learns exact solos, that's his thing, not mine.

If you have it then, play by ear. Feeling a solo is better than stoically building one.

Cheers,
Jerry

MakeShift


Thanks Spacey.  Yes, I am truly blessed that she is really into music.  She is already attempting to write her own songs.

 
You're welcome and I'm truely very happy for you and your daughter.
There have been quite a few that have posted recordings with their children and
hope you get to enjoy that soon.
 
Neither of my children had interest in music other than listening and I didn't force it on them.
The relationship with them and music was sure one I would have loved.
 
Best to you both,
Michael

I guess it all depends on who we run into in life and who is around us,

Danny Danzi



-Danny 

Man you sure hit on a big factor there Danny.
 
Unfortunately in my hometown at a young age I was the guitar slinger. I'm sure there
were guitarist that could out play me and knew more but they were the ones that stayed
at home so they were very hard to find.
 
To have the opportunity to play with another guitarist I had to travel a min. of 80 miles.
 
You know back then there was no communication as we have today so isolation was a very
real issue for those seeking information.
Mine was basically radio, LP's or a teacher excluding playing and jamming with others.
 
At that time I believe one learned from playing with others. Not only technical information but
finding ones sound. The learning experience from playing live with others cannot be taught, it has
to be experienced.
 
Now that the information a guitarist may seek is so readily available it could very easily become
a reason of missing out on the benefits of playing live with others. The knowledge from the experience of playing/jamming with others is acquired over time too. One doesn't gain all the benefits from doing so every now and then...it's not unlike technical studies. Both require years of dedication.
 
The dedication of spending that amount of time and surrounding ones self with other musicians
and technical studies is a major task. It is what we refer to as "paying our dues".
 
Even when one has the desire and makes the efforts and commit to the craft there is no guarantee
that they will be an "artist". It doesn't assure them of feel and creativity. Nothing does but I believe
the more effort that one puts into both of these areas increases their odds of becoming
a player. Of course the cool factor is that it can last a lifetime. 
 
 
 

I think that one important distinction that should be made is the difference between mere mental "theory" and "mastery". 

People can always relate to a musician who plays with total mastery (playing with true effortlessness), even if it's just very simple musically.  As an example, playing the blues isn't rocket science, but when you hear someone with great time, sound and phrasing, one can't help but enjoy it.  That's because the musician doesn't have to do any mental processing or gymnastics to get the music out.
That said, the more you know theory-wise, the time to need to spend to truly MASTER it goes up exponentially.  It takes a very long time to master the harmonies John Coltrane's "Giant Steps" and to play it as effortlessly as someone who's just ripping on a blues scale.  

Music isn't easy, but it is!       

^ Danny:

I was watching some videos on some very basic theory stuff; however, PBE was taught, too. (Actually, about 90% of the videos were about PBE (you do know what that is) vs. reading what the teacher called "spots."

She talked about improv, but she always went back to the theory behind all of it. Get this, she didn't teach it "traditionally." I must say, watch all those lessons though most of that stuff I knew, I picked up on some stuff I didn't because of the way she taught it. *Btw, the students were adults and she teachers children as well.)

Perfect example:

She mentioned "walking around the melody until you find the note."

For someone like me - since I am theory-based, I can very easily spot the wrong one; however, you as the performer can get away with that - unless of course, the wrong note is ridiculously obvious! She put it this way:

Playing verbatum is only for the orchestra! However, I think that isn't true at all as they can improv as well and probably should so they won't seem so "niche-like!" (Which is the biggest gripe regarding classical music. You can spice that up a bit, just don't go do something totally out of left field)

Take a Lady Gaga hit (or whomever) and write it exactly as played on the radio knowing how to write it for the orchestra, but NOT doing that! Or take a classical piece (Waltz) and write it as a contemporary one. (Blossoms). Orchestras (Real/Sequenced) have done this and audiences seem to take it in.

Anyway, getting back to the lectures I "attended." They were fun because there were times where they became hands on. She demonstrated how ear players react to spots because they use their ears instead to eyes where note-readers need those spots or they'll react the same way.

However, as I illustrated with how the orchestra doesn't HAVE to follow the score (they do, but that isn't the point), PBE performers, don't have to either. (ie: F shown doesn't necessarily mean FAC as they can add the dominant/leading 7th, Dominant 9th or notes in-between) Your ear will tell you as your audiences' ears will tell them. Yet, she also said that if you walk around the right note, you sound better than if you landed right on it.

I also watched a video about what a PBE performer should build around. This was predominately aimed at gospel, but this can be suited for any genre.

He felt that too often, performers try to slam the melody on top of the chords and that is where they screw up - besides, accompanists aren't supposed to play the melody anyway. If it's a solo performer than yes; however, even then one should probably avoid doing that since the chord played will often times have the melody note in it! (Usually the top; however, harmony is only another line of melody if you really think about it)

He said to build from the top then go down! which is how it's done in the theory-based sense. There are twelve chords that fit a melody. So, building around the bass line will limit you because the only thing you can do really is double it - nothing else! What usually done with the left hand on a chordophone? Doubled root!

Relating this to orchestras: Of the string section, which string has the good part? The viola as the bass viol, cello, and violins are pretty much set! (Top note, doubled/tripled) Yes, all of them can move; however, often in a given progression, they remain moving along those same lines, no?

Getting back to your question:

I think instead of mastering the instrument you meant to say mastering the song because mastering the instrument refers to technique. Practice/Reps is a technique used to master a song as it is with anything else.

"He can run up and down that guitar like he slipped on ice or she can tickle that harp to death, breathe life back into it and do it again!" They can do that because they mastered the techniques and it's not just speed as that is the last thing you bump up!

In terms of rolling through a song: 

Again, techniques to show that you have mastered it is to:

Improvise and Speed it Up. (Those are all I can think of right now)

What jsaras meant is:

I am able to play Happy Birthday in my sleep (and that song has to be practiced believe it or not); it'll take me awhile to nail down A-Train - even if I can play The Magic Flute. All these songs are vastly different; however, even if the weren't, I sure as heck wouldn't skip over A-Train to totally obilerate The Magic Flute. 

An aside: I initially wanted to use Beethoven, but the benchmarks are egregious like you ain't never seen! A-Train to Beethoven? Haven't even stepped on the tracks and that train has already derailed! Hell, that train stalled so it wouldn't leave the station! KWIM?

In all seriousness, ITA with you that some think this way, but shouldn't because just because I can play all the famous tunes from "The Fantastic Four" (Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Tchaikovsky) ... no way in hell does it mean that I've mastered the piano! The pieces felt great to play, but why don't I feel so good? That is because I hurt myself more than the piano! Not to mention that there are a ridiculous number of genres that this instrument can fit in!

Another aside: That's what bugs me about the do's/don'ts when composing for instruments. Yes, there are guidelines like ranges, etc.

My girlfriend Connie Harper can't play it because what I thought I wrote for her isn't/shouldn't be for her. It should be for Pia Toscano! So, I have three options: I can revise, so she can play it, she can practice until she tells me or I see that she can't. If she disregards the composition guidelines, she probably will be able to play it even if she still ask me to revise it; however, I'll be more incline to respond to her reasoning more often then not! What's the third option? (And she'd do a good job, I'm sure!)

But the same thing goes for them, too! Imagine if Connie played her cadenza from Waltz every performance or Pia went Scott Joplin every performance. These two aren't showing how versatile they can be! I've got Connie doing some serious limbo in my Cashews track and some "gymnastics" as well while she's just running track on Blossoms!

I've heard both ladies do some pretty weird things (considered weird if they went back to their niche element); however, they sounded absolutely ... Oh, my! No words! No words! They'd put the contents of their niche boxes to shame!!

I apologize for the long post, but I can't help it! I'm learning so much from those videos and things I read on top of what I already know!

Btw, like the illustrations? :)

Rus: That was a great read, thanks for that! Hahaha yeah, the illustrations were definitely an added plus! :)

J: Thanks so much for that reply. Yeah, it makes total sense now reading that way. Between you and Rus I get it now. Thanks again for the in depth explanations and discussion guys. :)

-Danny

lawnranger


Any thoughts on what notes to play for a solo when using major pentatonic scale with 12 bar blues? 

For example when playing 12 bar blues in A, I have been using the minor pen. scales wich makes it easy to do solos. I just hit the a note on the a chord to start and the d for the d chord etc. ( I do mix it up, I don't always pair the root note with the chord, but it does sound nice when I do)  Harder to do with the minor, I of course can hit the a note on the a chord.  Any suggestions for the d chord ?

I know from previous post I will get a lot of inspitation from the answers.  So.................... lets hear it.

A little trivia and suggestion....
 
Because you mention using the root note to help you start;
 
A major chord is 1-3-5 or for your chord reference A-C#-E
A cool thougt is that if one plays a single note - A for instance- the harmonics are C# and E...the single note has those notes in it. That is why a major chord is pleasing to the ear.
A minor is  A-C-E  - the reason it gives the "bluesy" sound is because a "natural" harmonic
of "A" have been altered. ( the C# changed to C)
 
I know....a bunch of technical mumbo jumbo BUT....
 
Since you are using the root note to help get you get going with your licks I would suggest that
you use the 5th or "E" note to start your licks.
 
Then the fun part; Using the 3rd will give you things to consider-
One being to start your licks on the major 3rd (C#)
Another being to start your licks on the minor 3rd (C)
 
There is no harm (and a lot of good) to use both of them to start off with....the lick
of - C-C#-E-F#-A   is common and is used in many blues/rock tunes such as the beginning
licks to "I Know A Little"- Lynyrd Skynyrd which everyone is probably familiar with.
 
Remember- "Concept" is a good thing. In my suggestions the concept is to use intervals
in an order so one knows exactly what they are doing and to learn the sound of the use of.
The concept expands- one needs to learn how to continue a concept. In the example I provided
I used changing the third of a chord....expanding the concept would be to apply the same thought
process to the 5th- meaning to sharp and flat it to understand and hear the sounds generated and
use of.
And it keeps expanding....7ths, 9ths, 11ths , 13ths.....and combinations of changes....diminished-augmented....etc.
 
 
And maybe some arpeggio based licks if your not incorporating them.