Helpful ReplyMaking MIDI Drums Sound "Real?"

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Larry Jones
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2018/12/06 19:20:28 (permalink)

Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?"

Added December 27, 2018: Since this forum is scheduled to be locked soon and there will be no more new content, I'm leaving this note for future explorers: What follows may be the best set of tips, tricks, techniques and best practices about the topic in the title -- how to make your digital drum tracks sound real. It contains so many different ways of achieving realistic drums using the tools built into SONAR/Cakewalk by Bandlab as well as third party software (and even tin cans!) that you may never get around to trying everything.
 
We all have incredible power in our DAWs these days. We can make radio-ready recordings with a laptop. But as the old saying goes, power corrupts. In the world of digital recording, that means you might be tempted to misuse your power and create tracks with flawless-but-robotic timing and percussion, and who wants to listen to that? I hope the methods found in this thread will help you rise to the next level.
 
My heartfelt thanks to everyone who contributed, and best of luck to all of you.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
 
I've been using the MIDI drums that have come as part of SONAR -- Addictive Drums 2 and Session Drummer. My usual process goes like this: I start with patterns (loops), build up a track, add fills and breakdowns, cymbal hits, etc. as the song develops. Some of my tweaking is with pre-made parts, some of it I play "live" on a keyboard. I've gotten pretty good at this, but my finished product is still lacking, and now I don't think it goes far enough, so here's my request for suggestions:
 
What techniques do other Sonarians use to make fake drums sound real? Do you tweak velocities or randomize timing? If so, how do you do that? Are there plugins that work for this kind of thing? Are there other MIDI drum packages that are better at this than the ones that came with SONAR? (Toontrack? BFD? Others?)
 
I should add that 90% of my recording is pop/rock/blues/old-school R&B. I don't do any hip hop or EDM, so I wouldn't want to spend any time -- or especially money -- on those styles at this time. Other than that, I'd love to hear your recommendations, methods, software, etc.
 
Thanx!

EDITED TO ADD: Hiring a real drummer is not an option for me these days.
post edited by Larry Jones - 2018/12/28 06:10:52

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reginaldStjohn
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/06 19:39:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby kzmaier 2018/12/07 13:52:54
Larry,  I do things just about the same way you do them. I have found that the Superior Drummer 3 or Ezdrummer 2 browse and tap to find help me get in the ballpark. I then edit and tweak the drums to my liking. I still don't think like a drummer and having a real drummer play parts is the best. 
 
I think the main issue isn't that the drums don't sound "Real" it is you worry that your drum parts are what an actual drummer would play for that song or part. However, that is what makes each person's music unique.

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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/06 20:33:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Cactus Music 2018/12/07 03:37:21
I've programmed an awful lot of drums, mainly in AD2 and what I've found is that 'humanisation' comes from poring over every drum note, manually. i.e. not using loops or pre-built MIDI clips, make your own. I don't use any auto-randomization stuff.
 
Mainly this results in you manually tuning the velocity and timing of every single drum note, but it can become quite a therapeutic experience. In most of my recordings it takes around 1 hour to program 1 minute of drums to a reasonable level of satisfaction.
 
Usually you only need a few little embellishments to make something feel human.
 
The big picture is dynamics: differing velocities and ghost notes. If the software is simulating mic bleed, use it. If the software is triggering different samples based on velocity, use it. program ghost notes at a lower velocity on a different part of the snare skin. Use tom rimshots for emphasis/effect.
 
Once you've programmed a nice dynamic drum part, don't compress all of your work out of it, turn it down, and let the master bus make it noticeable.
 
Some examples of what I've done using these findings:
 
https://www.facebook.com/jobsonandrew/videos/vb.611805940/10156639594335941
 
https://soundcloud.com/andrew-jobson/anesthetize-porcupine-tree-cover
 
 
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/06 20:54:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2018/12/08 13:05:43
Dynamics & time.
 
-You can take a heavily quantized loop & by varying it's velocities change it's feel.
-Try selecting just the individual parts in either sections or the whole tune (hats, kicks, snrs, cymbols, toms) & slide them + or -  a certain amount of ticks from one or each other. It can drive, push or lay-back the groove with the other tracks in your project
- Hire a real drummer
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/06 21:37:34 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Cactus Music 2018/12/07 03:38:09
Every note by hand. Start off with a copy/pasted pattern but revise that note by note as the track develops.
Attention to dynamics, especially those almost inaudible snare notes on shuffled rhythms.
Make sure each pattern would be playable buy a human drummer.
Things like triplets are rarely exactly on time...  a real drummer speeds them up a bit...  make sure the hi hat isn't still going during fills. Would a real drummer really get his hand from that floor tom to that cymbal in that time?
Make sure each kit piece is the sound you want. For AD2 I almost always end up with a hybrid kit.
I tend to keep things simple by having just two tracks for the drums - one for main drums and one for the hi hat and cymbals.
Jerry
 

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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/06 22:13:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby kzmaier 2018/12/07 13:52:24
I tend to be pretty lazy when it comes to drum programming and mixing, and don't always adhere to my own advice, but FWIW:
 
- If you have the chops, play everything in from a controller to get naturally expressive and variable dynamics and timing, and resist the urge to record 4 bars and loop it. Play all the way through, and take advantage of 'happy accidents' that might occur. To get the interplay between kit pieces, play two or three related parts of the kit together as you record in real time - kick and snare in one pass, open/closed/pedal hats in another, ride/crash/splash cymbals in another, toms in another, etc.
 
- Hats and cymbals tend to have the greatest range of articulations and pattern variability in the real world, and will therefore sound the most 'programmed' if that variability is lacking. They also tend to be where the magic happens in terms of 'groove' and 'feel'. If you're going to spend a lot of time tweaking things, this is the place to focus your efforts.
 
- Use different combinations of kit pieces/articulations in different sections of the song, and find a distinct rhythmic 'hook' for each. 
 
- Try an algorithmic drum package like Jamstix. Use it by itself, or just borrow parts to complement your own stuff.

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#6
Cactus Music
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 03:49:54 (permalink)
I started out with a drum machine,, a Roland 505 which still use, then when I first got my Atari I also bought a Roland  49 note controller and started entering notes live. 
I had hi hat patterns from the 505 which I still use as a metronome. 
I then would play a ruff piano part to set the arrangement. 
Then I would play the Kick/Snare live. 
Rewind and re do hi hats, ride, crash and toms. As said, a real drummer cannot play those at the same time. 
I would then edit best I could by deleting parts like snares during tom rolls or crashes and bad hits. 
 
I really didn't change this much until I bough my digital drum kit. THAT made a huge difference. 
 
Here's a way to have a digital drum kit for FREE! I tried for fun and it sort of worked.  
 
Mike up anything you can hit, cardboard boxes, an nice armchair works too,, and multi track record it just like a real drum kit. Now play the parts on the "kit" and use drum replacer to turn it into midi!! 
If you want to improve the kit... purchase a real set of drum sticks. Buy a cheapo kick pedal. 

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Jesse G
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 04:57:57 (permalink)
Basically I use AD2 and export each AD2 kit piece to an individual track except cymbals.  I then process those tracks to taste with EQ, compression and whatever is needed to make them sound right.
 
Check out thus article
 

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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 05:18:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby kzmaier 2018/12/07 13:53:08

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Larry Jones
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 08:11:25 (permalink)
I didn't expect so many great responses! Thank you, all. I have my work cut out for me.
 
(Johnny: I've been accumulating coffee cans and oat meal boxes for years, thinking I might make a cheesy "drum kit." I was planning just to mic them and use their natural sounds, but I'm liking your idea. Did you know that the percussion on "Susie Darlin'" is some guy slapping the car keys in his pants pocket? I love stories like that, where someone just uses whatever is at hand.)

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Bassman002
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 08:54:14 (permalink)
Hi:)
 
Another suggestion:
 
Normally I do every note manually, sometimes loop it, change very often velocities (Hi-Hats especially), then humanize them.
 
But sometimes I play them with a pad and a drumstick at 50 to 70 % of the origin tempo, I know I have a much better timing (feel) if I play it slower! (I'm not a drummer, but bass player).
I start with playing the melody and the structure of the song (Verse, Chorus, Solo a.s.o) 
Then the Mididrums with a pad. Turn it to normal tempo and then the bass, guitars.... 
 
Bassman.
 

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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 09:01:55 (permalink)
jerrydf
Every note by hand. Start off with a copy/pasted pattern but revise that note by note as the track develops.
Attention to dynamics, especially those almost inaudible snare notes on shuffled rhythms.
Make sure each pattern would be playable buy a human drummer.
Things like triplets are rarely exactly on time...  a real drummer speeds them up a bit...  make sure the hi hat isn't still going during fills. Would a real drummer really get his hand from that floor tom to that cymbal in that time?
Make sure each kit piece is the sound you want...

 
I agree 100%. I would also suggest that it is generally a good idea to emphasize the on beats and de-emphasize the off beats. This applies at not only at beat level, but also at half-beat level, quarter-beat level and so on. Only emphasize a particular off-beat if the other instruments are also emphasizing it.

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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 09:08:04 (permalink)
Find a song that's very close in feel to the one you're working on and analyse what the drummer's doing. You might be surprised at the space drummers leave in certain places, it's a common mistake to keep the drums firing away right through a song.
 
The only time I got close to 'realistic' was doing a cover song and copying every drum part and fill by hand. Very laborious stuff. Nowadays I'd rather find a drummer online to work with.

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 11:21:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dcumpian 2018/12/07 13:15:13
Hidden_Symmetry
Dynamics & time.
 
-You can take a heavily quantized loop & by varying it's velocities change it's feel.
-Try selecting just the individual parts in either sections or the whole tune (hats, kicks, snrs, cymbols, toms) & slide them + or -  a certain amount of ticks from one or each other. It can drive, push or lay-back the groove with the other tracks in your project
- Hire a real drummer


jamesg1213
Find a song that's very close in feel to the one you're working on and analyse what the drummer's doing. You might be surprised at the space drummers leave in certain places, it's a common mistake to keep the drums firing away right through a song.
 
The only time I got close to 'realistic' was doing a cover song and copying every drum part and fill by hand. Very laborious stuff. Nowadays I'd rather find a drummer online to work with.



Both Hidden_Symmetry & jamesg1213 are correct.
 
The key thing is to think like a drummer. 
 
I spent years analysing what drummers were doing and imaging myself playing the parts. When I eventually got an electronic kit, it was just a matter of getting used to the limb co-ordination.
 
However as Hidden_Symmetry said, dynamics is a big part of it. In particular, the velocity curves of you particular drum samples can have a huge effect here to making it sound realistic... especially if the MIDI loops you're using weren't created using the same drum vsti.
 
One thing I've learned (only quite recently to be honest), is that its a mistake to go for higher velocities to make things like the snare cut through. A real drummer wouldn't hammer the drums at full velocity all the time (unless perhaps it's punk or thrash metal). But this is the major reason lots of MIDI drum parts sound like machine guns.
 
Keeping things at a lower velocities gives you a much better dynamic feel... and you can always use compression and saturation to add punch at mix time.
 
As far as timing is concerned, I find this largely down to taste as to whether you want things "in the pocket", or going for a pushed or laid back feel. Heavily quantised drums though, will sound artificial.
 
For years I quantised everything as on my Amiga the timing was never that exact anyhow, so anything other than exactly on the beat just sounded out of time. Nowadays I tend to be more selective: hi-hats I leave alone, whereas kicks & snares I'll be more strict with quantisation on the 1st & 3rd beats, but less so elsewhere.
 
In saying that, in my experience, the notes & dynamics are far more important than timing for realism.
 

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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 12:36:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby kzmaier 2018/12/07 13:53:32
I play a lot of different instruments and have dabbled around on drums. I do not call myself a drummer. But, I had the privilege to play alongside of some really great drummers. Playing rhythm guitar made me very conscious of how and where to lock in to the groove and these are the main things I do to sound as authentic as possible when programming drums.
1. Drummers ALWAYS subconsciously hit the cymbal hand harder on the downbeat!
2. Time adjust the snare on slow songs just a tad behind the accurate down beat for a relaxed feel. Usually during verses.
3. Time adjust the snare on fast songs a tad before the accurate down beat for a more tension feel. Creates a little more excitement!!
4. Ghost notes on the snare during grooves are really important.
5. No drummer I have ever watched so closely has ever played the exact same pattern over and over on the cymbal hand!!! Always randomly change the cymbal pattern every couple of measures or so. If it's an 8th note pattern, add some sixteenth notes randomly in the measure. Overtime you will find the spots to do this. If it's sixteenth note patterns, take out some cymbal strikes here and there.
6. Even with Factory played midis, ALWAYS reduce the velocity of the entire clip another 5 to 10 per cent and edit the velocities for the accents back up 5 or 10 per cent for more pronounced dynamics.
7. Always randomize velocities for each hand and foot!!!

I teach my students this simple philosophy. Notes are the voice singing. Rests are the breath between the notes. But dynamics is the pure soul of the music.
I hope some of this helps you. I do not profess to know everything about drums but I do think these crucial things that I have covered are the meat and potatoes of programming interesting drum tracks.
Good luck!

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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 12:37:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby kzmaier 2018/12/07 13:53:38
There are so many ways to do this that not one thing will work for everyone, that's the great thing about threads like this, you see how each and every one of us work differently but still reaching for the same goal.
 
I start all my track from scratch. I used to be a button pusher back in the old days when I used a drum machine.
But even early on I realized that writing my own beats from scratch set them apart from a preset (even a preset that has been customized to taste).
 
I will typically start with a 4/4 drum beat (Kick on 1, Snare on 2, exc) then play riff ideas and link them together.
Then I will go back and delete it and start over from scratch.
 
The mixing process is a bit different, For drum sims, I do a lot of sound stacking.
This is essential for me with rock and pop as I have 3 kick layers (one for thud, one for pop, another for crack)
Snare is done in a similar manner. Toms are bused to FX.
 
This is how I achieve drum edits from scratch.


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#16
Brian Walton
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 12:46:32 (permalink)
Jamstix. Big learning curve but when done right it can make AD or Superior sound legit.
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ChazEd
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 13:34:14 (permalink)
You can use AD2 to humanize your drums.
 
You can import your drum midi files into AD2, transform them, and bring them back to your DAW.
 
It's pretty easy:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg0NklSRlWY
 
Hope this helps

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kzmaier
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 13:51:38 (permalink)
WOW, great thread!!!  Big thanks to all the contributors!  This forum rocks!
 
Thanks,
Kz

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Slugbaby
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 13:58:51 (permalink)
I'm in a pretty similar style of music, and also use MIDI drums.
I USED to pore over every note by hand, and got quite realistic.  A little while ago, i realized a better plan:  Now i'll take a pre-made loop that sounds realistic (usually a real drummer that's created it, like Superior Drummer's stock) and similar to what i want, but then drag the hits to the places I want them and do any large-scale overall velocity changes on a particular drum.  And do any minor tweaking to polish.
This way, I get the human rhythm and velocity variation of having a real player, but playing the actually sequence that I want. 

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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 14:24:10 (permalink)
Brian Walton
Jamstix. Big learning curve but when done right it can make AD or Superior sound legit.



+1 to this... but take note of my earlier comment regarding velocity curves. The jamstix internal sounds react differently at different velocities to AD2 (not tried Superior, but I suspect its the same).
 
Also, Jamstix does a clever thing with velocity/expression in its internal sounds to get a more random output. In other words, it might play velocity sample 64 at full volume, then for the same "hardness" of note play velocity sample 80 at a lower volume. AFAIK it doesn't do this when using MIDI mapping.
 
Bottom line is, if you're Jamstix / AD2 parts still sound like a drum machine, try tweaking your velocity curves.

Mark McLeod
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eve_ripper
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 14:40:47 (permalink)
I play it on midi keyboard or drum pads. It gets some humanity.
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sven450
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 14:43:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Steev 2018/12/07 21:39:40
Lots of good info here.  I also start with the loops provided in EZ2 or AD2 as they are played by actual drummers and are infinitely better than me trying to play high hats naturally on a keyboard. I'll often do fills by hand in the drum map.
 
 One thing that is especially important is to vary the tempo throughout the song to sound natural.  Create a tempo map once your song and drum parts are laid out, BEFORE you start playing guitar or keys or whatever. Let the song breath into the chorus and speed up a bit etc. 
 
Once I have that, I play all the instruments to the drums.  Last tweaks are to go in and manually adjust velocities of hits and things to make it all as natural as possible.

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#23
tobiaslindahl
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 16:18:29 (permalink)
I use aerodrums with Superior Drummer 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CavlglPYVvQ
 
Looks weird, but the software actually works really well. I cant be bothered programming drums and having played drums myself this is much more efficient. 
#24
jude77
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 16:29:02 (permalink)
There are a TON of great ideas here.  My thanks to everyone who weighed in.
 
Here are my 2 cents: bleed!  Midi drums are recorded one at a time, real drums are recorded as a kit.  The difference can be pretty obvious.  If your drums vst lets you control the amount of bleed try turning it up and see if that helps.
Secondly, is panning.  If you listen to real drums they aren't usually spread all over the stereo field, but are panned slightly from the center, so maybe try tighter panning.
 
Again, thanks to all you posters.

You haven't lived until you've taken the Rorschach.
 
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#25
jerrydf
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 17:03:58 (permalink)
Now try and program a Steve Moore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItZyaOlrb7E
 
For added realism, you can have the drummer get drunker through the track, drop his (/her) sticks several times; tell a few lewd jokes, slag off the bass player; Change tempo through the track (as mentioned above) ... but not in time with the rest of the band. Some of that you can do in AD2.
 

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Instruments: Various fretboards and amplifiers.
Listen to ... Cosmic Two-Step (2017)
#26
lapasoa
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 17:44:43 (permalink)
Andyjobson 85 good music.
#27
Steev
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 21:58:16 (permalink)
Wow, great topic, hard to find something that wasn't previously covered here.
However, being you have AD 2, have you ever noodled around with the "Transform" functions?
 Open the "Beats" window and on the right side of the GUI click on the "Transform" tab and you have all the basic tool there to humanize loops, and even edit things you've previously sequenced yourself.
 Adjust velocity, accents, random timing, time signature, kit piece mix and resign pieces, and adjust the length of a loop a lot of good tools to experiment with

Steev on Bandlab.com
 
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#28
bdickens
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 22:16:47 (permalink)
To repeat: JAMSTIX.

Byron Dickens
#29
stratman70
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Re: Making MIDI Drums Sound "Real?" 2018/12/07 22:16:48 (permalink)
EDIT:
Just downloaded newest version of these and they are not the same. Will investigate. I still have saved exe's of the older versions I use now.
Been using mdi drums since the late 80's. Alesis drum machine was first one iirc.
Now I use ez drummer 2 and Steven Slate Platinum Drums 4 and, ready Franks Midi plugins. It's a suite of p-lugs for midi like none I have ever seen before. been using them for about 12 years, but only for drums.
You can demo them so worth a download Google Franks midi plugins.

 
 
#30
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