Making tempo changes with both MIDI and audio

You're not showing which Sonar version you're using, but there's a relatively new feature available using the Melodyne ARA (Region FX), where you can drag a clip to the timeline, and the Sonar Tempo map adjusts to the tempo of that clip. Hopefully this will help, if you have access to that feature.

noynekker
You're not showing which Sonar version you're using, but there's a relatively new feature available using the Melodyne ARA (Region FX), where you can drag a clip to the timeline, and the Sonar Tempo map adjusts to the tempo of that clip. Hopefully this will help, if you have access to that feature.

Be aware that the Melodyne drag-to-timeline function doesn't recalculate the MIDI event times and durations as Set Measure/Beat At Now does, so the MIDI will go out of sync with the audio.

No, there really is a way to do this but I've only read about it looong ago so I don't know. I think it has something to do with the MIDI Clip Timebase or something VIA the Clip Inspector (Absolute?) and /or I think there is a Prefs/Timeline format option used for film that can be mucked with without incurring stretching.
 
What Brundlefly was saying may hook into some of that.
 
If it truly does turns out that this is impossible in Sonar and you convert the MIDI to audio you could still retreive the performance by reversing the conversion (Drag and Drop ARA Audio to MIDI conversion with Melodyne). The audio to MIDI clip won't be an exact duplicate of the original MIDI but if it's simple enough and you use a nice clear synth sound when you render to audio it'll be pretty close (so don't render/record the original MIDI through some fancy, super effected synth/sound... something clear and clean... you can use the new MIDI to go back to your original sound).
 
You are going have to go through the new MIDI file to do some clean up/correction of doubled notes, missed notes, improperly detected pitches, inaccurate velocities, etc but you can use the audio version as a reference.
 
Actually if you do TWO audio renders of your original MIDI, one with the original synth sound and all the effects and the second with the super clear sound for the MIDI conversion once you get the clear synth audio file turned into MIDI you can use the audio file with the intended synth and all the FX as you reference as you clean up the MIDI.
 
Basically load up the synth/effects you used originally on your new MIDI track that you just converted, mute the "clean synth" audio file (you don't need it anymore) and then, because your new active MIDI track has the same settings/sounds/effects as the audio file you created from the ORIGINAL MIDI track, as you clean up the MIDI notes on the new MIDI clip it should match up to the audio file.
 
 
Whew... sorry that was a stream of consciousness style attempt at problem solving. In the middle of stuff so hopefully that all makes sense.
 
Cheers and good luck. If you figure it out please update.

Hey Mondo.....
 
Maybe the take away is to always record to a tempo from the get go?
 
 
 
OK OK I know, too robotic...... yadayadayada......

MondoArt
The situation is that I left the default tempo and time sig for the session at 120 BPM and 4/4 time. The song is actually in 6/8 time and averages about 75 BPM.

Sorry I missed your original reply reply. You could have easily changed the time signature to 6/8 without affecting the playback of the MIDI or audio, and then used Set Measure/Beat without bouncing the MIDI. I do it all the time.
 
Nice work, either way. 
 
 

i am surprised this MFX hasn't received more love here. Alexey has posted examples of LUA code on his website  - including for the Tempo Map example he refers to - follow the link above. I have only (so far) tried the tempo map example he refers to above. Works as advertised. However he has built AZ Lua to be a swiss army knife MFX where applications can be developed in LUA - or you can simply use the presets he's already developed. Amazing! Definitely worth a look.

I saw this pop up again this morning and had an idea I had totally overlooked the first time that may or may not work (depending on the material).
 
So last year when SPlat was initally released (or soon thereafter) part of the new "MIDI Enhancements" was the ability to "Slip Stretch" MIDI clips like we can with audio. Essentially you can hover over the end (or start) of a MIDI clip, hold a binding (Alt IIRC... perhaps Ctrl) then "Slip Edit" it so that the data within "stretches" proportional.
 
In theory (to bring it down to a basic level with basic math) if you had a MIDI clip that was created at 200bpm then changed the project to 100bpm to record some audio the MIDI clip would double in length and play half as fast. To correct this you could use the MIDI Slip Stretching feature to slip edit the MIDI clip to be half the length, thus returning it to its original speed but now in sync with the new 100bpm audio (so every measure at 200bpm turns into a half measure at 100bpm).
 
So using that premise and just doing some relatively simple math in regards to what measure the MIDI clip should end at at the new tempo you can just slip stretch to the appropriate measure and line everything up. Individual notes (even on an improvised performance that isn't tight to a grid) should adjust length and position (not sure how it affects controller data or automation though).
 
Easy enough for going from one steady project tempo to another using the same time signature. If there are multiple tempo changes BUT each section is a steady tempo then you could just make splits in the MIDI clip at the points where those tempo changes occur and move/align/slip stretch each clip as needed.
 
Now for fluctuating tempos (like steady rises/falls or erratic tempo changes such as performances not recorded to ANY click) I'm not sure exactly how you'd go about it but with some elbow grease and brainsmartles I'm sure it could be done. For time sig changes though... that seems like it could get really out of hand very quickly and require much more work than it would be to just retrack the take.
 
Please note I have NOT tested the MIDI stretching option as of yet (I kind of almost forgot about it) and it sounds like you got what you needed already but I just wanted to toss this out there for the google searchers and to maybe pique the imaginations of other users.
 
@azlow... As always, cool tools. I'm gonna be in touch with you soon about our previous discussion once I'm a little less busy.
 
Cheeeers!

chuckebaby
 
1- Record a midi click track to the song by hand using a keyboard
(you can do it by drawing midi notes in the PRV but it takes a year and a half.)
 

You're my new hero.
 
It took me six years.

bapu

chuckebaby
 
1- Record a midi click track to the song by hand using a keyboard
(you can do it by drawing midi notes in the PRV but it takes a year and a half.)
 

You're my new hero.
 
It took me six years.

my mind is blown that my suggestion has been over looked
 
All he had to do was tap a click track to the guitar part.
choose the click track and select "Fit to improvisation"
no midi bounce down, no audio stretching. The timeline would have followed the guitar track.
the midi would have followed the project tempo automatically.
 

chuckebaby

bapu

chuckebaby
 
1- Record a midi click track to the song by hand using a keyboard
(you can do it by drawing midi notes in the PRV but it takes a year and a half.)
 

You're my new hero.
 
It took me six years.

my mind is blown that my suggestion has been over looked
 
All he had to do was tap a click track to the guitar part.
choose the click track and select "Fit to improvisation"
no midi bounce down, no audio stretching. The timeline would have followed the guitar track.
the midi would have followed the project tempo automatically.
 

FWIW, I think it's great suggestion, Chuck. Beats the hell out of the other suggestions. I'm going to try it on a project tonight!