Managing the last node of an envelope - a pain - am I doing something wrong?

When I'm working on a project, the song length changes a lot.  I may be trying different clips and I'll move old sections of the song, or clips past the end of the project temporarily as I try new things.  Or I find that the song is too long and I need to delete sections. 
 
The problem I have is when I create envelopes, Sonar creates ending nodes whose position defaults at the end of the project (wherever the "project end" is at the time).  When I finally decide exactly how long the song should be, and if I've created automation envelopes prior to this, I've got a bunch of ending nodes out past where the end of the project should be.  Now I've got to find those nodes and move them closer or delete them.  This is especially more difficult in X1 because I have an extremely hard time seeing them if they are not active in the edit filter.  In a recent project it took me a long time to find all these nodes and adjust them to the correct end of the project.  Of course, the time I spent could have been spent on more important things.
 
Am I doing something wrong?  Is there an easier way?

First... why bother with them at all? Can't you just leave them there? You can create a node before each end node (at the true end of the song) so that the parameter values are correct when the song ends.

However... if it does really matter and they all reside at the same location along the timeline... just select all the tracks you want to manipulate, then drag to create a selection along the timeline. Then choose Edit > Delete and make sure only the Track/Bus Automation option has a checkmark. Click OK to delete all the nodes that reside inside the selection.

Scott

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Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar X1 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/

Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free SoundTech Vocal Trainer Package, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

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Middleman- Thanks for your quick response.  Yes - waiting until the very end was my old way.  Consequently I didn't use automation much.  Now I'm using more automation with different sends and really using Sonar more fully.  I'm using this automation more in the composition and arrangeing phase of the production.  You're telling me that Sonar isn't designed to use automation until the end of the composition phase when the exact project length is determined.  I'm sorry but this seems pretty limiting. 

garrigus


First... why bother with them at all? Can't you just leave them there? You can create a node before each end node (at the true end of the song) so that the parameter values are correct when the song ends.

However... if it does really matter and they all reside at the same location along the timeline... just select all the tracks you want to manipulate, then drag to create a selection along the timeline. Then choose Edit > Delete and make sure only the Track/Bus Automation option has a checkmark. Click OK to delete all the nodes that reside inside the selection.

Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar X1 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/

Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free SoundTech Vocal Trainer Package, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

Publisher of NewTechReview - free consumer technology newsletter. Win a free i2i Stream Wireless Music Pack, go to: http://www.newtechreview.com/newtechreview/

Scott - thanks for your helpful response.  I tried selecting all and it didn't work.  I intentionally moved a node out way past the end of project.  Then deselected that automation in the edit filter of the track (in this case a buss).  I then did Ctl-A to select everything, then I selected the time range at the end of project where only that node was, and pressed delete.  It did not delete the node.  (I just re-read your post and I didn't follow your instructions fully)
 
To me it matters - when I work on a lot of projects I'm exporting and creating wave files very frequently.  I do not select a range of a project each time I export (that would be a pain and subject to the errors of mouse selection).  If I don't manage the ending nodes, my wave file ends up being a lot longer than it should.  I frequently just delete the end node because Sonar will not change the value beyond wherever the last node is.
 
The other thing is there is a "go to end of project" shortcut key, which comes in handy sometimes.  But this shortcut takes me to the last node. 
 
Again - this was much less of a problem in previous versions of Sonar because you could see the envelopes.  In X1 they are so faint and against the dark background that you can hardly see them. 

Hi Geno,

The method above works on tracks.

For buses... you need to lasso the nodes in the bus pane to select them. Then it should work. The bus pane is (unfortunately) treated separately from the clips pane.

Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar X1 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/

Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free SoundTech Vocal Trainer Package, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

Publisher of NewTechReview - free consumer technology newsletter. Win a free i2i Stream Wireless Music Pack, go to: http://www.newtechreview.com/newtechreview/

Actually, I think selecting a range is much easier than trying to export to the last node. Just put markers where you  want the beginning and end of the song to be and select everything in between them. Also, I usually put markers to begin and end the songs on the measure. So it's very easy just to select the range by changing the time snap to measures, start close to the last marker, and swipe across the time line from the last to the first marker. You won't usually be off because the snap setting and the markers are on the measures where you want to start and stop the song.

Big "Plus Ones" to a couple of responses you've gotten, Guitartrek:

"...First... why bother with them at all? Can't you just leave them there?..." From Scott Garrigus.  That's what I was going to reply with after reading your original post.

"...Actually, I think selecting a range is much easier than trying to export to the last node..." from Javahut.

It used to bug me too, the way nodes would end up scattered way out in the next county - and I do wish when inserting an envelope, that an ending node wouldn't be added.  It's much easier to work with dotted line envelopes. 

BUT I've shrugged it off - As the other guys said, it really doesn't matter, because it is so easy to select the actual length of your song when exporting the 2 track master.  I know you don't want to do that - but look at this, maybe it'll help you get over being stubborn about it.

When you've done all your work and you're ready to get a 2 track mix down to export:

1)  Zoom way out so you can see the whole project.
2)  Double click the header of any track, so that all tracks are highlighted.
3)  Place cursor at the end of the song.
4)  Sweep through to the start.
5)  Export.

Recommended - that the 2 track master is then worked on in a sound editing program like Sound Forge.  It doesn't matter if you've left a bit too much at the end of the song - Trim that off in Forge.  Perfect the fade on reverb tails there too.  Trim the start if needed, look at the wave form and correct when some sections may be too soft or loud - etc.

Randy B.

Thanks Randy - I knew there was someone out there that could relate to what I was saying about those nodes. 

I know there are so many ways to deal with waves that are too long.  And I know I can select a range before export.  But I still like to "clean up" the project at some point and get rid of those nuisance nodes.  It just bugs me to know that the "end of Project" is now very difficult to control because I can't see envelopes in X1 that aren't selected. 

You are all giving me great work-a-rounds.  I just want and easy way clean up the project when I'm near completion.

If Scott's method of selecting and deleting a bunch of nodes by lassoing would work, I'd be totally happy.  But this doesn't seem to work.  Maybe it's a bug?  Or maybe that's a "feature".  Or maybe I'm still not doing it correctly.  You COULD do it in 8.5.  If there is absolutely no way to lasso buss nodes in X1 then so be it and I'll stop asking.  But I'm hoping there is.

The other thing that would help is to be able to change the background color so we can see the envelopes that aren't selected.  Or let us "brighten" the non-selected envelopes.  I'm pretty sure Cakewalk will address this in future versions.

javahut

There is a way to lighten the background, which I've recently done for the specific purpose of trying to see envelopes that aren't selcted. Go to Edit-Preferences-Colors-Track View-Track View Clips Pain Background. Change to a lighter color. It helps somewhat.
 
I still say this is just another reason that being able to only select and work on one envelope at a time per track in X1 is a workflow killer compared to being able to work on any/all or any set of envelopes you choose in 8.5.3 (and being able to actually see all the envelopes). No other DAW works like this. There's a reason why.

I agree.  I hope they will figure out a way to allow easier ways to select multiple envelopes.  I do like the concept of working on one envelope at a time and all the different ways the smart tool interacts with a single envelope.  I assume this is a big reason why they make you select a single envelope.  But it would be nice to interact with multiple envelopes like previous versions.