Riverboy
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Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
I have posted in the NI forum and tried NI tech support, but just in case there are any other Sonar users out there that have experienced this problem: I am inserting the newest Maschine incarnation as a VSTi in X1c Expanded. Maschine is software and a hardware controller (drum machine). It is supposed to sync automatically with the host, so there is no timing adjustment (as there is when launched in standalone). While tracking - in play mode, all is well - timing is perfect. But the instant I try to record the track, there is a crazy lag of about three seconds or so AND no audio will record. It is like the signal goes into some crazy delay and then sent out to space. I have tested my other soft synths, like Kontact (which is also an NI product) and they work fine as always. I am hoping I am doing something idiotic?
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DigitalArchivist
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/16 14:12:14
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I tested this method twice and it works for me.
Pick an empty audio track and make sure it's selected so you can see it in the Inspector. Click the FX "+" sign in the Inspector's vertical channel strip for the track. Select Soft Synths, navigate to your Maschine, and insert it.
I used the Maschine Projects 1.5 Downtbeat type "Breeze" for my first test and the NI Projects Breaks "Grand Scale" for my second test.
Set your Audio channel to record and click the Record button in the Sonar Control bar. You won't see the audio waveform, only two straight lines. Click the Stop button in the Sonar Control bar to stop the recording AND the Maschine playback.
Use the Freeze Synth button in the audio track you just recorded and you'll get your audio waveform.
Insert a new audio track and drag the waveform to the new audio track in order to preserve it.
Now, if only I could the MIDI output to work between Maschine and Sonar I'd be even happier with the two.
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ba_midi
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/16 14:35:42
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Riverboy
I have posted in the NI forum and tried NI tech support, but just in case there are any other Sonar users out there that have experienced this problem: I am inserting the newest Maschine incarnation as a VSTi in X1c Expanded. Maschine is software and a hardware controller (drum machine). It is supposed to sync automatically with the host, so there is no timing adjustment (as there is when launched in standalone). While tracking - in play mode, all is well - timing is perfect. But the instant I try to record the track, there is a crazy lag of about three seconds or so AND no audio will record. It is like the signal goes into some crazy delay and then sent out to space. I have tested my other soft synths, like Kontact (which is also an NI product) and they work fine as always. I am hoping I am doing something idiotic?
I use Maschine almost every day of my life, and I use Sonar almost every day of my life. I am not seeing the problem you're reporting -- though that doesn't mean you aren't having it. So a few questions: 1- did you run Maschine in standalone mode at least once to setup all the audio/MIDI settings? 2- do you insert Maschine with ENABLE MIDI OUT checked in the insert synth dialogue? 3- do you keep Maschine in "Control" mode while working in Sonar? Those are just the basics to get out of the way in case it was something simple. The delay you mention brings to mind some other settings, like in "Reset Controllers" in MIDI preferences (in Sonar, not Maschine). Also - there was a problem with Sonar and Maschine that I'm not sure was completely resolved in Sonar X1 updates, but to be sure -- go into PluginManager and select Maschine under VST intruments -- then choose Properties and make sure the "# of Inputs" is set to 2. You can then OK it and close the pluginmnager. Rescan VSTs, and load a project with Maschine or start a new one and see if the problem still exists. Let me know how things go.
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ba_midi
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/16 14:40:25
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DigitalArchivist
I tested this method twice and it works for me.
Pick an empty audio track and make sure it's selected so you can see it in the Inspector. Click the FX "+" sign in the Inspector's vertical channel strip for the track. Select Soft Synths, navigate to your Maschine, and insert it.
I used the Maschine Projects 1.5 Downtbeat type "Breeze" for my first test and the NI Projects Breaks "Grand Scale" for my second test.
Set your Audio channel to record and click the Record button in the Sonar Control bar. You won't see the audio waveform, only two straight lines. Click the Stop button in the Sonar Control bar to stop the recording AND the Maschine playback.
Use the Freeze Synth button in the audio track you just recorded and you'll get your audio waveform.
Insert a new audio track and drag the waveform to the new audio track in order to preserve it.
Now, if only I could the MIDI output to work between Maschine and Sonar I'd be even happier with the two.
Wow - that's the long way around things, as they say. There are two ways to use Maschine data ... 1 is to record it like you would for any synth by playing the parts live (via Maschine's pads or via keyboard). 2 is to record INTO Maschine's patterns and scenes and then export (or drag/drop) them into a Sonar track. (A 3rd way is to just record into Maschine's patterns/scenes and trigger that by program changes without having to import into Sonar, but this is less useful approach). To accomplish #1, just insert Maschine (via Insert Synth) and make sure "Enable MIDI OUT" is also selected in the dialogue. when you record to a MIDI track in Sonar you won't see the MIDI activity light up (it's a bug somewhere between sonar and maschine that neither side addresses) but you should see the clip drawing as you record, and of course it will be there on playback.
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Riverboy
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/16 19:46:22
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This is some fantastic feedback! I appreciate what DigitalArchivist had to say, but I will leave this as a back up approach for the moment. As was stated, this seems like the long way around, especially considering I don't have to do this with any other VSTi's.
Ba_midi: I have double checked and tried all that you suggested and all seems to be as it should be, except I could not find "reset controllers' in the preferences menu anywhere (midi or otherwise)? I found reset preset vst plugins, but I don't think that is what you mean, right? Nothing changed a darn thing, unfortunately.
I use soft synths like Kontact and Superior Drummer quite often and I typically use your suggested method number 1 - simply inserting a soft synth and playing live via my keyboard controller and, now that I have it, the Maschine controller. The problem is VERY isolated. Everthing works perfectly, as I would expect, up until I hit the record button. That is the difference. And it is not a few milliseconds. It really is around three seconds. I really want to use this as a VSTi insert, but if I cannot figure this out, I realize I can use it in standalone and export to X1. Do you have any further thoughts? I have tried every sort of option in Preferences...midi, record, vst, etc but no luck.
As as aside, I have only had it since Friday, but I am SO psyched about this thing. I have a set of eDrums that I use with SD2, but I am no drummer and am loving what I think Maschine can do for me to make adding drum parts easier. I really like both the GUI and the controller so far. I see that you use Maschine a lot. Please tell me more about your thoughts about it and any advice you might have. Also...I am considering Vienna Ensemble Pro to handle my VST's and VSTi's. It sure sounds promising. Do you use it or have any feedback on it?
Thanks again,
Nick
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Riverboy
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/16 19:51:39
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Ooooo....and keep in mind, the biggest problem of all, in addition to the long lag, is that no data is recorded even though the track is armed. The second I hit the record button, the track meters stop jumping. It is as if the record button re-routes the signal somewhere...for three seconds...and then I hear the delayed signal somehow, but it is not showing up on the track in any form...delayed or otherwise. Again, I do not have this problem with any other soft synth, so it is definitely a Maschine issue.
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DigitalArchivist
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/16 19:59:46
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What I'd like to be able to do with Maschine is to set up a pattern and then record that into Sonar as both audio and MIDI. I certainly haven't been able to get the MIDI recorded into Sonar from the several supplied Maschine projects. Yes, I can play whatever sounds I set up. The "duuh" factor for me was finally realizing that I did not have to and should not set up a pattern in Maschine if I'm playing from my MIDI keyboard controller.
One of the only ways I've found that I can get the audio out is the method I outlined. The other method I know of for me to obtain audio is through the Sonar step sequencer. So far I've had zero success at setting up a pattern in Maschine as a VSTi, regardless of whether the hardware is connected or not, and then recording that as MIDI. I've had a similar issue with the groovebox ensembles in Reaktor and I used to have this issue getting MIDI out of the groove sequences in WusikStation and Viral Outbreak, but that now seems to work for me with the latest update to Sonar.
Anyway, I've done all the settings I can find and the standalone operation first makes no difference in my setup because Maschine as a VSTi in Sonar does not remember its standalone settings nor does the VSTi remember them from session to session.
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ba_midi
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/16 21:03:25
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Riverboy
This is some fantastic feedback! I appreciate what DigitalArchivist had to say, but I will leave this as a back up approach for the moment. As was stated, this seems like the long way around, especially considering I don't have to do this with any other VSTi's.
Ba_midi: I have double checked and tried all that you suggested and all seems to be as it should be, except I could not find "reset controllers' in the preferences menu anywhere (midi or otherwise)? I found reset preset vst plugins, but I don't think that is what you mean, right? Nothing changed a darn thing, unfortunately.
I use soft synths like Kontact and Superior Drummer quite often and I typically use your suggested method number 1 - simply inserting a soft synth and playing live via my keyboard controller and, now that I have it, the Maschine controller. The problem is VERY isolated. Everthing works perfectly, as I would expect, up until I hit the record button. That is the difference. And it is not a few milliseconds. It really is around three seconds. I really want to use this as a VSTi insert, but if I cannot figure this out, I realize I can use it in standalone and export to X1. Do you have any further thoughts? I have tried every sort of option in Preferences...midi, record, vst, etc but no luck.
As as aside, I have only had it since Friday, but I am SO psyched about this thing. I have a set of eDrums that I use with SD2, but I am no drummer and am loving what I think Maschine can do for me to make adding drum parts easier. I really like both the GUI and the controller so far. I see that you use Maschine a lot. Please tell me more about your thoughts about it and any advice you might have. Also...I am considering Vienna Ensemble Pro to handle my VST's and VSTi's. It sure sounds promising. Do you use it or have any feedback on it?
Thanks again,
Nick
Nick, It's obvious something is wrong as you are getting that long delay, but figuring out if it's a Sonar configuration/setting or a Maschine problem is tricky since it sounds like you're inserting it right. But - you're also new to Maschine, and just like Sonar - it's a complex thing. So just to be sure ... you insert maschine via the "Insert Synth" menu OR by using the X1 Browser and double clicking on it to insert it. Is that correct? And do you enable MIDI OUT? Make sure you don't use "Simple Instrument Track" during the insert for now, please. Sonar will create 2 tracks ... one AUDIO and one MIDI track. THe audio track should have "Maschine Out / Maschine out 1 Stereo as it's INPUT (there's an INPUT dropdown in the track header and inspector). The MIDI track should have "All Inputs - Omni" as it's INPUT. This setting will then accept input from any MIDI device connected and properly setup in Sonar (including Maschine itself). If all the above is true and correct, then I would strongly suggest re-downloading and reinstalling the Maschine 1.7 update. You may have to get it from the NI site directly as opposed to using Service Center (since Service Center will think you already got it and won't re-download it). So try all the above and let's see how that goes. I'm sure there's a solution for your problem, it's just not apparent _yet_. OH - and the RESET Controller setting is under references -> PROJECT -> MIDI.
Uncheck the "Zero controllers" but leae "Patch/controller searchback" checked.
That setting alone may solve your problem.
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ba_midi
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/16 21:11:35
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As as aside, I have only had it since Friday, but I am SO psyched about this thing. I have a set of eDrums that I use with SD2, but I am no drummer and am loving what I think Maschine can do for me to make adding drum parts easier. I really like both the GUI and the controller so far. I see that you use Maschine a lot. Please tell me more about your thoughts about it and any advice you might have. Also...I am considering Vienna Ensemble Pro to handle my VST's and VSTi's. It sure sounds promising. Do you use it or have any feedback on it? Thanks again, Nick I don't use VIenne Ensemble, so I can't comment on that. As for Maschine -- I think it's one of the best devices available, as well as a very well thought out interface (give or take a few things lol). It is WAY more than just a drum machine/module, and it can be used in any genre. The sound database included with Maschine is first class, as you've probably discovered -- but, perhaps as importantly, Maschine can use a HUGE array of sound sources (wavs, etc). I don't find a need to use the internal VST support but knowing it has that functionality and can use it is another great feature. I use Maschine in Sonar as a multi-out setup; generally my projects have a minimum of 4 stereo outs from Maschine and I keep all the parts on separate MIDI tracks, since I basically use Maschine like an instrument, ie., I play all the parts myself and then use loops mostly for icing on the cake, so to speak, if I use them at all. I'm sure you'll enjoy Maschine. I haven't met anyone who has it that hasn't loved it. So enjoy (once you get it working right)!
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ba_midi
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/16 21:23:48
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DigitalArchivist
What I'd like to be able to do with Maschine is to set up a pattern and then record that into Sonar as both audio and MIDI. I certainly haven't been able to get the MIDI recorded into Sonar from the several supplied Maschine projects. Yes, I can play whatever sounds I set up. The "duuh" factor for me was finally realizing that I did not have to and should not set up a pattern in Maschine if I'm playing from my MIDI keyboard controller.
One of the only ways I've found that I can get the audio out is the method I outlined. The other method I know of for me to obtain audio is through the Sonar step sequencer. So far I've had zero success at setting up a pattern in Maschine as a VSTi, regardless of whether the hardware is connected or not, and then recording that as MIDI. I've had a similar issue with the groovebox ensembles in Reaktor and I used to have this issue getting MIDI out of the groove sequences in WusikStation and Viral Outbreak, but that now seems to work for me with the latest update to Sonar.
Anyway, I've done all the settings I can find and the standalone operation first makes no difference in my setup because Maschine as a VSTi in Sonar does not remember its standalone settings nor does the VSTi remember them from session to session.
Like anything good, Maschine can be complex and take some time to master. You're right that if you play it like an instrument, the best approach is to make sure whatever group you're on has a blank pattern so it's not playing back any built-in patterns. Then it acts much like any other VST instrument in that it's "playable" (but with a great deal of features available). As for the MIDI-AUDIO part, you have a few choices ... you can drag the MIDI pattern into Sonar or create an AUDIO clip into Sonar (also via drag/drop). It depends on the settings you use in Maschine. I strongly recommend to both you and Riverboy to grab the latest Maschine Hardware Reference Guide and review it. It's a handy thing to keep around as well. I keep a copy on my site at: http://www.ba-midi.com/st...Quick%20Ref%20V1-3.pdf though there may be a newer version available from the author on the NI forum for Maschine. And keep in mind (both of you) that you have to use the "Sounds MIDI Batch Setup" if you want to properly use Maschine like an instrument and separate the PADs to their own MIDI notes. THe hardware ref guide is helpful if you're not sure how to set that up. I recommend getting the setup you like and creating a project TEMPLATE in Sonar so you don't have to re-do the setup each time. You can also create a Track Template as well for quick inserting into existing projects.
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Riverboy
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/16 22:45:54
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Billy,
Here is what I have come up with:
So just to be sure ... you insert maschine via the "Insert Synth" menu OR by using the X1 Browser and double clicking on it to insert it. Is that correct? And do you enable MIDI OUT? Make sure you don't use "Simple Instrument Track" during the insert for now, please. I don't normally have to enable MIDI OUT when I insert other soft synths, I usually just use simple instrument tracks, but based on your previous instruction I did with Maschine. To get the two tracks (Audio and Midi), in addition to checking the Enable Midi Out box, I also had to check the Midi Source and First Synth Audio Output boxes, too. When I did that, I got what you describe next... Sonar will create 2 tracks ... one AUDIO and one MIDI track. THe audio track should have "Maschine Out / Maschine out 1 Stereo as it's INPUT (there's an INPUT dropdown in the track header and inspector). The MIDI track should have "All Inputs - Omni" as it's INPUT. This setting will then accept input from any MIDI device connected and properly setup in Sonar (including Maschine itself).
Yep, the two tracks are as you describe. The audio track, however, does not have the standard audio icon or the soft synth icon. Instead it has the little synth keyboard with the circular midi icon attached. First time I have seen that! When I hit record, for the first time...I actually see a waveform being created in the audio track (as long as I enable the waveform preview button and have the midi track armed to record). BUT...nothing shows up on the midi track and the waveform seems to be 'just' a preview. It is sort of muted out and is not anything I can select, move, freeze or anything. If I even play the project again, it goes right over it, so I am guessing that is not really the audio? Perhaps this is what the DigitalArchivist was talking about when he said he freezes and then moves the track? But, I cannot even do that. Crazy. I found the timing problem when I saw that the audio was lagging by exactly one measure. Too much for coincidence of course. I knew I had a 1 measure metronome count-in specified in metronome preferences. When I switched it to zero....boom...(unfortunately) problem solved. Lag is gone. BUT, this of course sucks, because I like that count-in. It has never been a problem with any other synth or anything, ever, but I suppose there is some glitch between Maschine and Sonar. I will try the re-install and see if this disappears. Would be nice. But the huge problem is WHERE the heck is the audio/midi data-waveform or whatever it is called. Where is my sound?? Lol. Again, am I missing something? If all the above is true and correct, then I would strongly suggest re-downloading and reinstalling the Maschine 1.7 update. You may have to get it from the NI site directly as opposed to using Service Center (since Service Center will think you already got it and won't re-download it). So try all the above and let's see how that goes. I'm sure there's a solution for your problem, it's just not apparent _yet_. Will definitely try this. OH - and the RESET Controller setting is under references -> PROJECT -> MIDI.
Uncheck the "Zero controllers" but leae "Patch/controller searchback" checked. That setting alone may solve your problem.
Nope. No luck with this one. It would have been nice...!
Thanks again so much, Billy. You are extremely knowledgeable.
Nick
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ba_midi
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/16 23:14:20
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Nick,
It dawns on me that perhaps you need to check the "Sound MIDI Batch Setup" in Maschine as I recommended to Digi.
Because my "normal.cwt" template has all the settings I generally use, I sometimes forget to mention some things when explaining to others how to go about doing some things ... so
You click on the dropdown arrow next to the group name (in the lower half of the screen) in the Maschine software GUI and you'll see the option there as "Sound MIDI Batch Setup".
Choose "Sounds to MIDI Notes" and OK it.
This makes it so each PAD you hit gets its own MIDI note. I would recommend creating a default drum kit, and set all the settings you like/want/use most, then saving it out as a Maschine Project and also as a Maschine Group.
I would also save it out as a Sonar project Template as well -- so you don't have to do this everytime you load Maschine or start a new project.
Now you should see and hear the results on the tracks (the MIDI and AUDIO track you inserted in the project) and when you record and playback, the sounds/notes will be there if all went well.
As for the metronome -- you probably had it set for a 1 bar countin but without selecting "during record" and/or "during record and playback" so you basically ended up with a count-in that wasn't heard!
Just go into the metronome settings and adjust it (I use it solely for recording and have it off for playback). That should take care of that.
Once you get all this working, then you'll start to have some real fun with Maschine and Sonar I hope! :)
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ba_midi
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/16 23:16:45
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PS - the reason you enable MIDI out when inserting Maschine is so that you can use it's own PADS as an input device as well as a sound generating device.
Most VSTs are only sound generators and do not have triggers (such as PADs).
Also - the icon is because the AUDIO track for a "synth/VST instrument" is not the same as a pure audio track. So the icon reflects that it is a synth audio track.
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Riverboy
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/17 01:03:37
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OMG OMG OMG OMG....that was it...the Sound MIDI Batch Setup was what it was ALL about! Totally did the trick...boom! You are a genius Billy...woo hoo! Back to music again, thank God!!
The metronome thing is still an issue, but at least now things are working. I have used the metronome in Sonar since I have used it, and like you, mostly use it only during recording and have it set up that way in preferences. It is working fine in all other situations and with other synths. If you aren't having this problem, then it must be some setting I have set in Maschine that is pointing it to the wrong thing...it is starting it's sync off the wrong indicator (the metronome start rather than the start of the song). If you have any other brainstorms, feel free to impart your wisdom. I am not worthy!!
A thousand thanks!
Nick
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ba_midi
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Re:Maschine 1.7 as VSTi...big lag/no data when in record mode?
2011/10/17 02:26:18
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Riverboy
OMG OMG OMG OMG....that was it...the Sound MIDI Batch Setup was what it was ALL about! Totally did the trick...boom! You are a genius Billy...woo hoo! Back to music again, thank God!!
The metronome thing is still an issue, but at least now things are working. I have used the metronome in Sonar since I have used it, and like you, mostly use it only during recording and have it set up that way in preferences. It is working fine in all other situations and with other synths. If you aren't having this problem, then it must be some setting I have set in Maschine that is pointing it to the wrong thing...it is starting it's sync off the wrong indicator (the metronome start rather than the start of the song). If you have any other brainstorms, feel free to impart your wisdom. I am not worthy!!
A thousand thanks!
Nick
Heh, I'm not a genius, Nick. I'm just a lunatic manual reader LOL. I'm also very resourceful ;) I'm surprised the metronome is giving you a problem. You might want to give CW tech support a call - it's probably an easy fix in this case. I definitely use the metronome with a count-in (1 bar, audio) without issue, so it should work in general for others (you in this case). There's no setting I can think of in Maschine that would be affected by this, but I'll double check tomorrow (need some sleep at the moment). I'm happy you got things working (mostly). I hope you have many hours of good music making and fun!
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