Master Bus in the Red During Record, Tracks are normal, is this Ok?

"in the red" is OK but the master bus should never go over 0dB.  the way that sonar works, over 0dB on any individual track OR on any bus EXCEPT the master is OK, but the master bus is what is sent to the soundcard so you cannot allow it to be over 0dB or you will have digital clipping.

if you're recording in 24bit then you don't need to record "hot."  -12dB to -6dB peaks on each recorded track will give you "headroom" to mix.  but if your master bus is hitting 0dB or above, then pull down the faders on the tracks until you get the master bus under 0dB.

yes, you can fix it in the mix if it's ONLY the master bus that's clipping.

but if you had recorded your tracks where they hit or went above 0dB then you cannot fix that.  that's called digital clipping and it's a "no no" in the digital realm.  It's not like the tape days where overs on the tape were just saturation warmth - the digital overs are a hard undesirable distortion.

so you can simply pull down the master bus slider to hit a point where you are at no more than -0.1dB and that will solve the problem.  well, actually, I recommend more like -1.0dB if you are converting it to mp3 because the conversion process will cause compression on the tracks which might cause digital clipping.

a compressor/limiter on the master bus would also help prevent digital overs.  depending on the version of Sonar you have, I'm sure you have a compressor and compressors can be set to "limiter" mode.  you can learn more about compression on my website.

One tip for you, alm1mal: lower your master bus out of the red before your final compressor/limiter. You can either use the master bus trim control or your limiter's input level control (if it has one). Make sure you've left at least 6db headroom going into the final compression stage, otherwise the final output will sound pretty bad.

You're risking disaster when you run in the red on the master.... just be sure to pull it down before you export.

The safer thing is to go ahead and pull the master down NOW. If the volume is low, you can always turn up the monitors or the amp but the point is to have a clean signal with head room coming out.

My rule of thumb is.... if I see red in the meters, I make the adjustments right then and there.

As Beagle correctly points out, if its the red in the meters then that is only giving you a warning. It is the clip indicators you need to be more concerned about.

I like to leave the Master (and Buss) masters where they are on unity and make things work other ways.

One technique I have found works well is if after you have got you mix happening and the Masterbuss is starting to show clipping then simply put all the tracks into a group and grab any fader and they will all move in proportion to each other. Then pull the whole lot down a tad so the clipping stops. Then you retain your mix and you have removed the clipping. Make sure you increase the monitoring level in your room to compensate.

Studio One makes it very very easy to put all tracks into a group. You only need select the first track, hold shift and select the last and they are all in a group. That is how I got onto this.

Hi Thatsasrat yes I agree with you and that was not meant to come over as a Studio One plug. It was just that it was not until I was applying this technique in another DAW that I realised how easy it was to lower the level of all your tracks at once.

I was going to add but didn't, how to apply the same set of instructions in Sonar and also the fact that once you have done this you need to release all the tracks as well in order to put them back to normal.

It is the principle of lowering all your tracks volume that is very helpful not what DAW you happen to be using. I know that in fact quite a few forum members use more than one DAW and I use Sonar (8.5), Studio One and FL Studio now. What I find interesting is discovering how to do a certain thing in one DAW and then going back and learning how to do it in the others (if you can that is)

But it is also important to realise that not all DAW's are the same as well and there are some things that you can definitely do in some that you cannot do in others. It is silly to think that Sonar is the best DAW out there and that is has more features than every other DAW. There are a couple of areas that Sonar is not strong in. One is switching tracks while in a loop and in staying in record. Sonar cannot do this yet Studio One handles this with ease and all without stopping. Pretty important for those wanting to build up musical ideas fast and all without loosing time or sync etc.

Also in another X1 thread someone wants to alter the tempo of the music after the fact. This seems to be quite a complex task in Sonar yet in Studio One all one has to do is alter the tempo in the transport bar and everything plays back at the new tempo. (and on pitch of course) Yes folks just change the tempo and it all plays back at the new tempo. Really that is the way it should be. So if a Sonar user is attempting to do this a lot, then maybe it is not the best DAW to use and perhaps another will do it faster and much easier. This means getting more than one DAW but there is some merit in doing that, it does increase the possibilities enormously.

What CJ and Jeff say is what I agree with, You need to turn down your tracks until the Master is not peaking. It's called summing on a analog mixer. There's no magic fix, you will come up with a system that keeps your mixes clean, but slamming everything to max is not the ticket, never was, never will be. And putting a compressor on there might not be the sound you were looking for. If you like natural, open sounding mixes, then pull the tracks down and start over again. I try and stay out of the red while mixing in digital. The loudness will come at the mastering stage where it belongs.

Hi Thatsastrat I appreciate your comments and you definitely did not come off sounding like a tool. I think you have a valid point and I have to be careful not to just sprout out how to do something in another DAW. You are right, the OP is using Sonar and so any advice I have should be oriented to that. It just means I will have to boot it up and do some quick checks on the Sonar processes involved.

I do love Sonar for many reasons too and one of its major strengths for me is its great midi processing and midi plugins and how easy it is to use them. Studio One is very deficient in this area for sure. Also there are many great features in Sonar such as track folders etc that also make working with large projects much easier. I have also been a great fan of z3ta+ and I am looking forward to upgrading that as well.

Another great Sonar thing is the quality of the people on the forum.

But while on the subject of other DAW's it is FL Studio that is quite unique in its own way that has got me intrigued. I think it is the step sequencer king actually and also the piano roll is quite amazing as well. It definitely makes you create music in a very different way and if anyone is looking for alternative ways to make music then FL Studio is it! It is certainly pattern based but it is also linear track based as well it is just that it is not so obvious in that regard. Also the mixer is quite different but amazing too.

But back to the OP. As many know I am a great K system fan and if you keep your track levels at a K system reference then you will never clip the signal. I think CJ had got a good point though and that is after you do have your track levels all good then you have to add the right amount of each track to satisfy your mix but also keep the Buss or Master buss just sitting at the K system ref level as well. I think a good concept is to bring in the big sounding instruments but not peak them too high on your meters and just leave room for everything else to come in. It can be a bit of a juggle. And if you do find that your Msterbuss is starting to clip then put all the tracks into a group and drop them down a bit, release them and keep going. Another thing is to keep your monitoring levels healthy in your room, this tends to prevent you from pushing things anywhere. Also I like what Cactus Music said about trying to make things loud too early. That is so right. Leave it till later.

Wow, you people at this forum are great, and a great help for people like me. Settled my problem and yet gain more interesting info from your discussion.

Thank you all.

Hi alm1mal There are two parts to a signal the peak values and the rms values. Most metering in modern day DAW's only show you the peak values. Although in Sonar you can view rms values as well. (Although not well because the rms parts are well down compared to peak levels. You need a special rms plugin to do it properly) Back in the analog days we concerned ourselves with rms values and did not worry so much about peak values, they took care of themselves. But these days most DAW's only concern themselves with peak values and ignore rms values. What has happened to rms metering? This is not good really because it is the rms part of the signal that is akin to overall loudness and yet we don't meter it anymore! That is why there is so much inconsistency with the loudness of tracks and busses etc. These days you need BOTH! The rms part of the signal is the main meat of the signal or similar to average level.

The problem with many people here quoting level values is that some say they set levels up to minus this and minus that and that is not a bad start but it does not say anything about the rms value of the signal that is sitting underneath. RMS values can vary while the peak values stay the same. eg One signal might have an rms value of -14 db FS and a peak at -2 db FS and another signal might have an rms value of say -8 db rms and a peak value also of -2 db FS. Are they both the same. Yes and No. Peak wise yes but rms wise one signal is essentially 6 db louder than the other. And it will sound like it too.

So it is not a bad idea to get a meter than can show you the true rms value of the signal. Real VU's can do it but there are also plugin alternatives such as this here:

http://www.bluecataudio.c...Product_DPeakMeterPro/

The K system is an approach to monitoring levels inside your DAW (and also in your control room) and seeing what the rms values are. Now in digital we know that we should not go right up to 0 db FS so we need to work at some reference level well below that. With K system there are three reference levels and they are at -12, -14 and -20db FS.  At -12 db the rms part of the signal may be around -12 and that means a peak (transient)  of 12 db can exist above that. At -14 the peaks can be 14 db higher than the rms part and at -20 the peaks can be a whopping 20 db above the rms part. Each ref level is louder than the next but the size of the transients is reduced as the rms part goes up etc. I often work at -14 for example.

The VU meter is setup to show a 0db rms VU signal when the signal is at the ref digital level. If you decide to work at say -14 db for example all your mixes no matter what the music or the material will be about the same. That is how you get your mix levels consistent. So in K system we keep our rms levels consistent and let the peak values vary all over the place. (we don't stress about them as long as they don't go too near 0db FS of course)

In answer to your question about mastering different types of songs eg a ballad compared to say a full on rock tune, if you make your mix levels consistent then (using the K System) then there is not much to do in mastering and mastering is the place to tweak the overall apparent loudness going from a ballad to a rock song. Not at mix level. I export all mixes of all types of music at the same level. If you keep your VU rms levels consistent from a ballad to a loud rock song then they will sound very close to each other in volume. But when you look at the music in say an editor, you will see the ballad will be smaller in size generally to the rock song. That is because it contains a higher overall rms component so it needs to be lower or smaller in size.

In mastering you might have to make a simple tweak in the ballad a db up or down to make it sit nicely with the loud rock tune. Also in mastering we tend to raise the overall rms level from any of the K levels to a higher rms level. Many clients would not accept a master at any of the K system reference levels. (Pity because they should really!) But in mastering you tend to raise the ballad and the loud rock song by the same amount so they stay consistent in relation to each other.

After mastering I find a good test is to have a dinner party and listen to all the tunes in the background while not paying attention as such. You will soon notice any song either being louder or softer than the rest.

Here is a few other ways:

-Drive in the car with window open.
-Turn the volume way way down and see if you can still hear each instrument and understand the lyrics.
-Vacuum your studio carpet.

+1 from Cactus there. Actually vacuum the carpet is not so bad either! Another trick I have used is to have some sort of device going on in your control room that makes sound eg a fan heater or aircon, fan, (you guys would be needing a fan right now is that right!) or some sort of soft purring sound. (not a cat)

You can also feed some quiet pink/white noise right into your monitor system along side the mastering if you can organise it.  Actually put some low level noise in on purpose. It will show up a ballad that might be a little quiet and getting lost etc. Actually the low level noise thing is also good during the mixing stage, it will show up parts that are too quiet and getting lost in your mix. (turn it off though before you print!)

The car window is another great one too. I have done that driving through the Melbourne CBD on a busy morning. It just adds in the extra sound that will also show up a track getting lost etc..

the place for getting your final mixes to sound loud, is at the mastering

they will preserve your dynamics, and still give you higher peaks and RMS

Jeff:

Your points reek of experience and expertise. Thank you for the tutorial.

Is the Blue Cat Digital Peak Meter Pro the software I need to mix the RMS way and get my mixes under control?

What would be the point of using the feature described as:

"The peak and RMS envelopes can be combined together, reversed, modified and recorded as automation curve?"

I'm still absorbing the impact of using an RMS meter.

consider this:

by the way, when i say 'In the Red', i am referring to signals coming in over 0db.

THIS I can agree with completely and I have repeated it several times in this thread.  but the OP is asking about "in the red" meters in sonar which start at -5dB.

as far as sonar's meters not being fast enough, I don't have evidence to the contrary, but I haven't seen evidence to support it either.  regardless of that, the peak/hold report is accurate and it can always be used for final output on the master bus.  if you use the peak/hold numbers on the master bus then you can always adjust your mix to compensate for that.

as far as on individual tracks, there are 2 things to consider.  1)  if you RECORD over 0dB then you are crossing the Analog to Digital converters (A/D) at hotter than 0dB and therefore you WILL have distortion that is not correctible.  recording hotter than 0dB is very bad, and in fact with 24bit recording, recording at -12dB to -6dB should be sufficient.

2) if you're MIXING and plugins or sliders cause your individual tracks to go over 0dB then it is NOT a problem in sonar ever since the 64bit floating point audio engine was introduced (Sonar 6?).  64bit floating point allows tracks to be mixed at higher than 0dB without digital clipping because it's all done in math in the software program.  THAT only becomes a problem on the master bus (providing ALL tracks and buses go to the master and no track or bus is output directly to the soundcard).  when you allow the master bus to go over 0dB then you are hitting the Digital to Analog (D/A) converters and once again, hitting the hardware with anything >0dB will cause digital distortion.