Helpful ReplyMastering Approach - Which method.... ??

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SonicExplorer
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2018/05/09 06:17:12 (permalink)

Mastering Approach - Which method.... ??

Hi,
 
I was wondering, what's the preferred mastering approach using a DAW?  Do people who master their own songs do so by placing mastering tools (plugs) on the main bus output or instead on the sub-mix buses (such as drums, bass, guitar, vox) prior to the final output bus?
 
Thanks,
 
        Sonic 
 
 
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35mm
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 06:28:47 (permalink)
Export your mix first as a stereo wav. Then import that into a new project and add your mastering chain, dither and export. That's the best way.

Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 06:41:28 (permalink)
35mm
Export your mix first as a stereo wav. Then import that into a new project and add your mastering chain, dither and export. That's the best way.



That's similar to the classic analog methodology, so to speak.  Is that approach still necessary now days with DAW's ? .... What would be the advantage of mixing out the song when you could simply put the tools on the final output bus inside the project?  
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iRelevant
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 07:51:52 (permalink)
I think the general approach is to first make the mix as good as possible in itself, then at the mastering stage you focus on doing other overall adjustments. The issue is more from a perspective of making a set of songs consistent with each other, so that you can have en EP or album play song by song without radical changes in loudness, sonic image etc. To make it uniform as a collection of songs. If you make to many "mastering" type of decisions in the mix, it is harder to work in mastering modus in the aftermath. I think the main challenge with the mastering process it to make songs sound uniform sonically and for them to sound decent on any sound system ... from your 10$ phone to your 10000$ HiFi system. 

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LLyons
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 14:08:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg 2018/05/09 14:35:43
What is the purpose of your master?  Meaning, to what end is the finished product intended.  If its to hand around or enjoy for yourself, or as a test to help understand how the current mix might relate to the fine touch of mastering,  then the master buss works fine in the project.   I used to wonder what a mastering engineer would think of my mix so it was important to me in my learning curve.  I had to learn to let go and commit - to learn everything I can, and to continue to learn. 
 
If its to build a product (song) with other product (songs) for distribution - then mastering takes on a whole different perspective.  Creating a full CD length work of art where each song relates to one another - that takes a different area of expertise.
 
The rule that works for me - if its for profit, I send the work out to a qualified engineer.  If its anything else, I always export.  Before I import and start the 'polish' process (my name for it because I am NO mastering engineer), I give my ears and mind a rest.  For me, mixing and 'polishing' are two very different processes.  I go from hands on, say 40 tracks with fader, eq, sound field placement, sweetening and automation to 1 stereo track, where the focus is on the frequency range in the sound field, and then maybe a smidgen of limiting.  I find if I am hopping around with the other 40 tracks to make adjustments, its impossible to focus on the final output.
 
Thats me - YMMV..  Take care. 
 
 
 

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 14:26:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg 2018/05/09 14:36:10
Another approach with a surprisingly wide-held support is to actually mix right "into" your mastering chain from the very outset.
 
Admittedly  there are probably as many critics of this method as there are supporters - but it's worth trying out

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bitflipper
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 14:58:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby eikelbijter 2018/05/09 21:39:15
Part of traditional mastering is assembling songs into a collection, as for an album. For that you need to work with all the songs as a group, comparing their levels and EQ so they sound like they belong together, as well as sequencing, crossfades, inter-track timing and placing indexes for track selection on a CD. In this scenario, it makes more sense to export individual songs with lots of headroom and then bring up their levels in a separate mastering project.
 
However, nowadays we're more likely to be simply posting a song on a filesharing site or YouTube as a standalone file. In that case, we're really only concerned with making sure our levels are appropriate for the target platform. You don't need a separate mastering step for that and can just do it all within the project. All you have to do is settle on a loudness/peak standard and stick to it for every project. Which standard you choose will depend on the target platform, but -14 LUFS and -1 dBTP works for most online distribution.


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Studioguy1
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 15:20:30 (permalink)
bitflipper's analysis was right on the money. 
 
The only thing I would add is to do the final mastering with "fresh ears".  After doing parts and tweaking to get the mix you want to export, it is always good to let it sit or a few days if you have the luxury of time.  Now, when you listen to that stereo product only, you will get a fresh perspective of where you want to be and, of course, where you are.   My own process has been to do a final mix in Cakewalk by BandLab and export that stereo mix to a designated folder.  From there I access it in Sound Forge which has been my preference mainly because I have used it from day one and my mastering plugins from Cakewalk can easily be ported over there for use.  (I put those plug-ins in a separate designated folder called Mastering in Sound Forge).  I sometimes will go the extra step of porting a mix into an app like Lurrsen or something like that...that is, of course, if I am not sending it out to a mastering house.  If you are indeed sending it to a mastering house, make sure you keep compression-limiting at a minimum and check with their requirements before sending it out.
 
I do suggest, however, that you read as much as you can about mastering because in the end only you truly understand the concept that you are aiming for with a song(s).  There is so much out there now, why not learn as much as you can.  Bottomline:  Take a few of your favorite pro-released songs and use them as "ear references".
 
While it is indeed true that a good mastering engineer is a gem to be appreciated, it does not mean that you can't learn and who knows, maybe you will someday be that mastering engineer.
 

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sven450
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 15:43:07 (permalink)
35mm
Export your mix first as a stereo wav. Then import that into a new project and add your mastering chain, dither and export. That's the best way.


I do this as well.  It helps to separate the two processes (mixing and mastering) and helps me focus only on one job at a time.  It specifically makes me really get a perfect mix BEFORE going into mastering.

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Cactus Music
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 16:15:22 (permalink)
I always have and always will :
Write/compose= anything that can capture audio ( Cakewalk/Tascam DR40/Cell phone) 
Track/Record/overdub/edit = Multi track recorder/ DAW ( Cakewalk) 
Mix=Multi track/DAW  ( Cakewalk ) 
Master= 2 track/Wave editor  ( WaveLab ) 
Replication=Burn CD/ post MP3  ( Nero/ Gold Wave/  Internet ) 
 
I will always master in a Wave editor because that is what that software is made for. It is optimized to work with a stereo wave file. Workflow is superior ( for me) and all the proper tools are on hand. 
And as said if this is an album of songs it is much easier to produce a balance between songs using the tools.  

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35mm
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 16:46:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby davehorch 2018/05/09 17:44:05
SonicExplorer
35mm
Export your mix first as a stereo wav. Then import that into a new project and add your mastering chain, dither and export. That's the best way.



That's similar to the classic analog methodology, so to speak.  Is that approach still necessary now days with DAW's ? .... What would be the advantage of mixing out the song when you could simply put the tools on the final output bus inside the project?  


I started out in the analogue days, but that isn't why I use this methodology. There are no rules, but splitting the process gives you more flexibility and headspace - if you master in the mix, the temptation is to adjust the mix while you master and you will end up adjusting one to compensate for the other. 
 
By exporting the mix first, you have a copy of that mix forevermore. You can then remaster at some point in the future if you need to, or you can do multiple masters for different media from one mix - e.g. a master for mp3/cd, Spotify, vinal, radio etc.
 
As others have already mentioned, this method also enables you to mix a batch such as an album by importing all your mixes, laying them out in order, pre-mastering each track to get them consistent, then applying overall mastering for whatever media you are going to.
 
When I am about 2/3 through a mix I usually add some mastering plugs on the master channel (a bit of compression and limiter usually) to get an idea what the mix will be like once mastered. That's also good for rendering rough/preview mixes. Then I bypass the mastering plugs and make sure there is enough headroom on the master meter for the mastering process before I export the mix.

Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
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poetnprophet
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 16:48:41 (permalink)
There are a lot of good points here.  One thing I have noticed when I mix and master:  as soon as I put the limiter in the signal chain, no matter which method, the sound always changes.  Typically it's the mids and vocals that change the most, tone and volume.  I work mostly with hip hop, so high levels are important.
 
So lately, I've been adding mastering processing to a submix buss before the master buss, and it seems to make the entire process faster and more inclusive.  I know that's not the traditional way so don't bash me.  However, cpu performance is my limiting factor here and sometimes I can get myself into trouble with so much processing on the master buss.  Also, this is typically for single song projects and not an entire album.  As others have said, final mastering for a commercial album release has other considerations you can't do with a single song.
 
 

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AT
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 17:16:31 (permalink)
Tho many engineers "mix into" the two buss w/ comp/limiters and even DQ, they still send it off to mastering (or do it themselves for us home types).  As said above, two different processes that still hold from the tape/vinyl days.
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Brian Walton
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 17:19:28 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
Another approach with a surprisingly wide-held support is to actually mix right "into" your mastering chain from the very outset.
 
Admittedly  there are probably as many critics of this method as there are supporters - but it's worth trying out


I think this is super rare.  Having both Mastering Grade Compression + EQ (liner phase) along with a final limiter is very taxing on a system along with the full mix and other effect on tracks and buses.
 
Mixing into a bus compressor and things like that is common, but it isn't' the same as really mixing into a full mastering chain isn't super common in the professional realm.  
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jerrypettit
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 17:53:51 (permalink)
On a related note, I'll put a CD together when it all sounds good, burn a copy and play in my car...and without fail I'm fiddling with the volume knob from song to song--even though each song has used pretty much the same mastering plugins and is limited to -6dB.  
 
How do I get these songs to sound at the same appropriate volume after printing.  My ears aren't getting it done.  I assume there's some kind of "metering plugin" that I'm missing?
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 19:38:07 (permalink)
Thanks guys for the many replies and helpful insight, all great points.
 
Here's an idea I thought of, what do you think of this approach ?.....  (Disclaimer, I understand this isn't optimal for a body of art comprised of multiple songs, it would be more applicable for individual song releases):
 
1) Mix a project and export to WAV
2) Within the same project create another track (label it, say, Mastering Track) and point it at the mixed WAV file (not physically importing it into the project, just pointing at it).
3) Use the Mastering Track FX bin to add tools and master.
4) Highlight just that track and export to create a mastered file.
 
With this approach you can easily swap back and forth to listen between the mastered track and the mix tracks all within the project.  And if you make changes to the mix, they are automatically picked up by the Mastering Track since it is always pointing to the mix file name.  This approach also allows for better CPU management if that ever becomes a constraint.
 
Thoughts ??    
 
Sonic
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sonarman1
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/09 20:16:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jerrypettit 2018/05/10 18:24:45
jerrypettit
On a related note, I'll put a CD together when it all sounds good, burn a copy and play in my car...and without fail I'm fiddling with the volume knob from song to song--even though each song has used pretty much the same mastering plugins and is limited to -6dB.

How do I get these songs to sound at the same appropriate volume after printing. My ears aren't getting it done. I assume there's some kind of "metering plugin" that I'm missing?

you might have to master them keeping track of the RMS level rather than the peak level. RMS levels of a mastered track usually ranges from -12 to -8db. Anything above that is too loud, though a track can sporadisporadically go above that in certain parts.
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35mm
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/10 00:34:02 (permalink)
SonicExplorer
Thanks guys for the many replies and helpful insight, all great points.
 
Here's an idea I thought of, what do you think of this approach ?.....  (Disclaimer, I understand this isn't optimal for a body of art comprised of multiple songs, it would be more applicable for individual song releases):
 
1) Mix a project and export to WAV
2) Within the same project create another track (label it, say, Mastering Track) and point it at the mixed WAV file (not physically importing it into the project, just pointing at it).
3) Use the Mastering Track FX bin to add tools and master.
4) Highlight just that track and export to create a mastered file.
 
With this approach you can easily swap back and forth to listen between the mastered track and the mix tracks all within the project.  And if you make changes to the mix, they are automatically picked up by the Mastering Track since it is always pointing to the mix file name.  This approach also allows for better CPU management if that ever becomes a constraint.
 
Thoughts ??    
 
Sonic


Like I said above, there are no rules. You can do what you like, but I think you are kind of making things more difficult than they need to be by doing what you propose in the long run. If you are happy doing it however you want to do it, then do it that way, but you asked for advice, and people with long-term experience advised you on the best method to use. They didn't advise that method because it was how things were done in the analogue days, but because they have learned how to best organise things for efficiency and recoverability in the future. The way the majority of people have prescribed is the best method for productivity and future compatibility. You can use another method, but you may find somewhere down the line that you run into problems, and then you will think, "Ah, that's why they said to do it that way!" 

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/10 01:11:57 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jerrypettit 2018/05/10 18:27:36
I have mastered many albums including my own music.  I feel that mixing and mastering should not happen at the same time or mastering after a mix is not smart either because your ears are tired from mixing and generally you won't make good mastering decisions.
 
I like to mix and not very loud either. e.g. a -14 or -20 db rms mix.  It's OK to mix into some compression but make it light duties only. e.g. low ratio e.g. 1.5:1 and 2 to 3 dB of GR max.
 
Print the mix onto a CD and listen to it for a week here and there.  In your car, etc.  While eating dinner even.  You will find a bunch of things over the week that you will want to change.  You will start hearing things that are too loud and too soft etc.  Some entrances will be too loud or soft etc..   Make the mix changes at some point.  
 
Leave it again before mastering.  Another week even.  Then just create a mastering session which will be a stereo track with the three basic processors on it e.g. EQ, compression, limiting etc.  By leaving it you will hear it fresh again and make good mastering decisions.  Master after a good nights sleep in the morning as well. 
 
Use reference tracks while you are mixing and mastering as well. Good mastering requires no real vicious approaches to EQ and compression and limiting.  The mix should be so good that the overall EQ will hardly be required. Same with the compressor and limiter.  Don't master too loud.  It is not the go these days. 

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Cactus Music
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/10 04:02:30 (permalink)
To the post regarding uneven levels song to song. This is why you should use a Wave editor because they have the tools to do this. 
Here's an example of a wave editor ( acoustica 7)  analyzing a song. No guess work involved here.
https://acondigital.com/products/acoustica-audio-editor/  Try the demo, 
Note this song is a backing track and split Bass left/  Drums, keys right so therefore uneven. 

 
 
To the OP, You idea is creative but overly complicated. And your not going to hear changes to a mix until you re-export the song. 
 
What I do is export the mix., keep Sonar open
Open the file in the Wave editor and Analyze it. 
This information is critical and each song needs the be very close to the same readings. 
Even if it's a one off, I keep to my standards
I also top and tail another important task, 
I often find something is not perfect so I return to Sonar, fix that and re export. Once the check list of requirements is met with the analyzing I burn a CD and like Jeff so wisely has said, live with it for while making notes as you listen to the album everywhere possible. 
 
I will admit that one thing that has sped up the process is using the Brickwall limiter on my Master buss. I have it set to -0.40 as you can see above, it works.  

Johnny V  
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#20
SonicExplorer
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/10 05:26:34 (permalink)
Well, my idea won't work after all, just tried it.  Sonar "locks" the mix file being referenced by the Mastering Track, so you can't export a new mix.
 
What's the consensus on placement of the mastering EQ (provided we are talking extremely minimal tweaks)? Should the EQ be last or rafter before the limiter?
 
     Sonic
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richardskeltmusic
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/10 05:29:30 (permalink)
Pesonally, I find it helps to keep the distinct processes seperate: so I have a file for recording, I export stems into a new file for mixing, and finally import the mixdowns into a new file for mastering.  When I try to do everything in one project file I find I lose focus on the current task, and get distracted by posibilities up and down the chain.  I have worked in a single file from recording to master, but the results ain't as good.  Having said that, It might well depend on the sort of music you make, if it's all soft synths with little audio recorded in real time then the prehaps the 3 stage process is overkill?
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AT
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/10 14:31:48 (permalink)
Mixing with latency-inducing plugs can cause problems, although if it is sputtering your system that is another argument for using a stereo editing program.
 
Or get a SSL desk.  A couple of pros I know won't mix unless it goes through the SSL buss comp, with speed of light hardware latency!
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bitflipper
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/10 14:35:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby iRelevant 2018/05/10 15:42:49
jerrypettit
On a related note, I'll put a CD together when it all sounds good, burn a copy and play in my car...and without fail I'm fiddling with the volume knob from song to song--even though each song has used pretty much the same mastering plugins and is limited to -6dB.  
 
How do I get these songs to sound at the same appropriate volume after printing.  My ears aren't getting it done.  I assume there's some kind of "metering plugin" that I'm missing?


This is where "perceived loudness" comes into play. Specifically, a metering plugin that attempts to show you how loud it subjectively sounds to humans, regardless of objective RMS and peak levels.
 
SONAR/Cakewalk has such a meter, albeit a simple one, built into its Adaptive Limiter. It shows a horizontal line over the its graphical display that represents loudness units (LUFS). Adjust the levels of each song so that they fairly closely match where that line falls, and they'll all sound pretty close when you play them back. You don't have to use AL for limiting if you have a preferred third-party limiter, you can just insert AL for its LUFS graph. 
 
If you want to spend some money for something fancier, the best loudness metering I've seen is iZotope's Insight. There are, however, many capable plugins for much less money, such as MeldaProduction's MLoudnessAnalyzer.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/10 15:00:45 (permalink)
Many good suggestions already posted.  You'll find that as you learn & progress your methods may likely change ( definitely try more than one approach &/ or daw)
I would only add that that you should export your source files at best quality or of the project settings, keep them organized with several backup copies. That way you can easily remaster them at a later date using any method & w/o fear of losing them if they are in the projects audio folder & it somehow gets deleted or corrupted.
If not already mentioned first get a few reference mixes, try the free mastering services like LANDR to hear what that results they give you. ( not always good but can give you a bit of insight when first leaning)
Select 1-2 tracks & have them professionally mastered, keep them as comparison reference mixes when doing your own masters.
Also don't get discouraged, chances are it will take quite while before you handle on the process & start making masters you're satisfied with.
#25
fireberd
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/10 15:03:43 (permalink)
My approach may not be what the "masters" do, but it works well for me and old style "traditional" country music.
I get great comments and returning customers.
 
I record all the tracks.
Do what is needed for each individual track
Bounce all tracks to a new track (mixdown)
"Master" the bounced track with Izotope Ozone 5 or 6
Export the mastered track as a 16 bit 44.1Khz wav file. 
Burn audio CD's with Nero BurningRom application
 

"GCSG Productions"
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#26
Starise
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/10 16:04:07 (permalink)
I mostly use the all in one approach because my targets are not hard copies or made into an album. 
 
Personally I think the ability to change the pre master and hear how it will sound after the mastering plugs is a benefit.
 
The only time I have exported from a project to a separate master program was for hard copy albums or in using multiple staging for volume/limiting/compression. I wouldn't have had to do it then, but it was easier to add complex chains to a separate project and keep it all organized since I could dedicate an entire project to it. I mostly mix soft acoustic, so I'm not into that because it usually isn't necessary for me. I dropped out of the loudness wars a long time ago.

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Twitter @Rodein
 
#27
35mm
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/10 16:38:49 (permalink)
SonicExplorer
Well, my idea won't work after all, just tried it.  Sonar "locks" the mix file being referenced by the Mastering Track, so you can't export a new mix.
 
What's the consensus on placement of the mastering EQ (provided we are talking extremely minimal tweaks)? Should the EQ be last or rafter before the limiter?
 
     Sonic


EQ before limiter. Limiting should be the last process and EQ should be the first because cutting or boosting frequencies will affect the overall level.

Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
#28
tubeydude
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/10 16:48:10 (permalink)
I keep in my master buss: LP64 EQ, LP64 Multiband comp, Voxengo Elephant, Voxengo span.
 
When tracking and mixing, I keep the master buss FX bin bypassed, so that I don't' have to deal with latency issues from the LP plugs.  When mastering, I just turn on the FX bin and adjust the plugs.  I usually aim for about a -8 dBFS RMS.
 
There may be better, more pro ways to do it, but there is not an easier or faster way.  And since I'm not being payed to do it... easy and quick it is!
 
#29
msmcleod
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Re: Mastering Approach - Which method.... ?? 2018/05/10 17:52:36 (permalink)
For quick results, take a look at AAMS Auto Audio Mastering: http://www.curioza.com/ - there's a free and paid for version.
 
I tried out the free version on a couple of tracks and the results were about the same as I got from LANDR.
 
There's hundreds of genre presets, so it's likely that given a bit of trial and error you'll get something close to what you're looking for.
 
Like all auto-mastering software, it makes generalised decisions so it wont have the various tweaks you might want in at specific points in some tracks. I did however find it useful as an additional reference track when doing the final master.
 
M.
#30
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