meh
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Mastering Question
Relativly new to this level of recording so bear with me please if this is a stupid question. I have gotten to the point where I have what I think are good clean mixs of some jazz standards. Trio style.. Piano, Bass and Drums. Exported to wav... Created an Audio Cd. Sounds like I want it to execpt.... The CD volume is low compared to the Stereo radio on the Hi-Fi and in the car. Also if I play a "factory" CD and then mine the volume on my CD is almost the same amount low. My Question.... So is this because I have not "mastered" it yet. Is that it's job? If I try mixing at higher db levels thing start to sound distorted. The individule wav recordings are not clipping???? Can someone point me in the right direction please. TIA
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bluzdog
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/04/30 22:50:59
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You guessed it, it's time for mastering. One function of mastering is to bring up the average level of a given track. Watch out for the loudness wars, don't get sucked in!!!!
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Bub
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/04/30 23:12:29
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Fun question. :) What is the maximum db level of the final wav you are exporting? If you are using a limiter, you shouldn't be getting distortion unless your input signal is really hot. What I do is, depending on the type of music, I'll rip a similar store bought CD track and load in to Sonar. Then load my master wav and play them both and get a rough idea of the volume level and go from there. I also do the same with my tracks once I get an initial idea of the volume. What I do is, I load all the tracks that I'm going to put on a CD in to Sonar on individual tracks and mute them all. Then I'll play a couple at a time just to try and get an idea of where the levels are and what adjustments I need to make. If you have CD mastering software such as Sony CD Architect, you can do the same thing a little easier. The problem is, your CD will only be as loud as your loudest track. I like to do it my way because the volume changes are permanent and it makes your masters more consistent and easier for when it comes time to put a group of songs together for a CD. I find that with the Pro Chanel in X1, it's a lot easier for distorted sound to happen. You can really get in to trouble with the 'Make-Up' knob on the Comp and the 'Output' knob on the Tube Saturation. I've run in to it a lot actually. Sometimes I'll just reset everything and start over. Some say that a good rule of thumb for individual track recording volumes is -18db, some say go as hot as you can without going over 0db. I go the -18db route because of potential clipping problems. If you have a -18db track and load Sonitus Comp for example, you'll notice you don't have to mess with your input levels. A 0db track with Sonitus Comp and your signal is off the scale. I don't know if any of this is the right way to do it, but it has served me well over the years. Good luck! Bub.
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HumbleNoise
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/04/30 23:18:10
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meh, this thread should get a ton of interest because the question about mastering comes up a lot but before you 'master' your tracks what have you done with the mix? What's your signal chain like 'before' mastering? Compressors? Limiters? EQ? Which ones? Where? Gotten rid of the low end rumble (high pass) yet so you CAN get it louder without distortion? Or cut those odd frequencies with your EQ? And made room in the mid range so it doesn't get congested? All of that, and more, should be fixed in the mix before mastering. Mastering doesn't always make your track louder. If it's not loud enough before mastering it probably won't be loud enough after without doing too much in the mastering stage. Others will know more.
post edited by HumbleNoise - 2011/04/30 23:20:09
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meh
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/04/30 23:43:13
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HumbleNoise What's your signal chain like 'before' mastering? Compressors? Limiters? EQ? Which ones? Where? I have a left and right piano at about -4db as well as a low level stereo MIDI piano at -15db panned to the middle. I have a Bass channel at -6db panned 20% right and a Bdrum, Sdrum and HH in the right 5% and a ride cymble and tome fills panned 5% left at -15db or somewhere in that general vicinity... I have some reverb on the Master... Thats it so far.
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wilqen
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/01 03:47:49
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Meh; You should seriously do some wood shedding on the subject of Mastering before you go any further. It seems to me that the levels you are listing above in your post are where you have your channel faders set, not what the meters are telling you. Also is it peak or RMS levels you are describing ? You also need to look at your frequency curve to make sure you have a it well balanced in terms of tone. Nothing worse than a mix that won't transfer. I know these terms are probably new to you but you can find a book (Craig Anderton has an excellent one that you should be able to find on this site) on mastering that will teach you all that you will need to know to do a fairly good job of mastering your recordings. A well mastered recording will have sufficient volume and will sound good on many different playback systems. Your recordings will no longer be at a too low volume when compared to others. etc., etc. If anyone tried to give you all the info on mastering in this forum it would take dozens of pages and weeks of your and their time. I hope this sends you in the right direction. Keep on makin' music !! Learn what you need to and soon you will have what you want. Will
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Sidroe
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/01 06:42:07
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There are many nice tutorials on mastering as well as tracking and FX on YouTube. Everything from very simple to very in depth discussions. There is no one secret setting that will give you perfect results on every track. Just keep in mind that every track has it's own discrete differences and try to find settings that are the best for the individual track first. Then try to balance all tracks for a complete cd consistency. I have clients all the time that were unhappy with the average levels on their cds. I don't just apply a compressor and let it rip. I may have to use drastic settings to acheive what the client wants. The main thing is to try to get the level of the entire cd consistent from beginning to end. Good Luck!
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HumbleNoise
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/01 09:40:38
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meh, First off take my advice with a very small grain of salt as I'm absolutely not an audio engineer and most of what I've learned has been from extensive reading (this forum is the best) and not from spending time in a professional studio mastering hit CD's. But from what I know if you're tracks are not loud enough now it is NOT time to master them, it's time to make them louder. How much louder? I've read -3 -5 db before mastering so the mastering engineer (in this case you) has some headroom to work with. That number will be argued for a hundred pages but the idea is to get your levels up to a decent level BEFORE beginning the mastering process but not so high that the mastering process is dead on arrival. Again that's not from experience mastering but just from reading and learning. Usually those levels are raised with compression. How much is another hundred pages and getting the proper levels BEFORE you even compress is yet another hundred pages. Sub buses and parallel compression and hundreds of techniques go into the mix BEFORE you start to master. Have you tried a search on this forum? There are some VERY good audio engineers and page after page of great discussions that have gone on over the years regarding mixing and mastering. You owe it to yourself to read everything you can and I'd suggest you start here on this forum. I'll restate that my advice is utterly unqualified but hope that helps a little.
post edited by HumbleNoise - 2011/05/01 09:41:48
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jonny3d
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/01 10:31:11
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There is a video lesson on "Mastering with T-Racks" using their "T-Racks 3 Deluxe" package. The video proved to be the best education I've gotten on the "what/where/when and why" of Mastering. [class="producttitle"]Mastering with T-RackS If your serious (and do not want to pay some one) I recommend getting and watching the video first. It really does a great job explaining the chain of events and results. After viewing you can use whatever plugins you already have to accomplish the job. 'Groove 3': http://www.groove3.com/str/access-it-all.html The T-Racks (by IK) are fairly reasonably priced and they do a great the job. http://www.ikmultimedia.com/Main.html?MainPage.php If I could not afford the "T-Racks 3 Deluxe" package, get a few of the 'singles" I do not have much money .....and I did waste money trying limiters and such (some spendy for me pushing $200 on sale) but the T-Racks for me are my go to VST's for master bus during tracking and on the final master setup. These would be my choices: Linear Phase Equalizer - Classic Clipper - Brickwall Limiter - Metering Suite Good luck and have FUN! Jonny
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Rski
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/01 10:36:10
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My car stereo, the radio is perceived as louder than my CD player, using professionally mixed consumer albums. This fact is more to do with the design of the factory radio/CD factored with the radio pumping up their content somewhat, listen to any internet streaming of familiar music and you will hear to some extent this loudness, the streaming codec also contributes to this as well. Usually for those CD albums I'll rip them then boost the loudness using T Racks S3 to brick wall those tracks and sometimes an EQ tweak to allow those tunes to come through louder on my cars cd player to overcome the road noise. So the perceived loudness can be kicked up a notch to achieve a hotter signal, however, the composition could suffer if overdone. Some consequences are any background noise will become more apparent, such as PC fan noise any other noise source picked up during the miking of any track. Also the dynamics will suffer and the peaks of that wave will flatten out, if a brick wall compression is too much. Trail and error will eventually attune your efforts to achieve the results that we all yearn for.
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MNorman
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/01 10:54:27
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meh
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/01 11:26:37
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All; I have discovered Boost 11 Peak Limiter and by raising the input by 6db and setting the output to -0.1 this seems to have accomplished my first goal without any noticable change to the incoming signal. I am not using compression of any kind not sure if I need to. Of course there is much more study and work to be done and I appreciate any and all feedback from this forum. I have been reading and studying the entire process and am just now getting to the point where I think I have the "big-picture" of the stem-to-stern process. Been a lot of work so far and am just realizing how much more there is to learn (and I thought learning my instrument was a life-time adventure..:-)). Thanks To All...
post edited by meh - 2011/05/01 14:37:56
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Middleman
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/01 11:50:56
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Goals of mastering. Get the peaks to stay under zero db. EQ adjust for speaker translation. Get the RMS value as high as you need. This varies depending on how smashed sounding you want the track. Keep some decent dynamic range; the difference between the peak values and the RMS value of the track. Rock and rollers demand less dynamic range, country artists have more dynamic range (not all but many). Craft the fade in and fade out of every track. Craft the time between tracks. Level match the overall volume of all tracks taking into account mood and effect of transitions. In your case, jazz, dynamic range is desired. You can use a compressor to raise the RMS but instantiate it without turning it on. Follow this with a limiter to brickwall the transient peaks but don't push the input, maybe .3 gain reduction under zero. Now go back and play with the compressor to raise the overall volume a bit but be careful because as you raise the compressor output you can go overboard, especially on jazz. You may even skip the compressor and just use the limiter if you want to keep your dynamic range.
post edited by Middleman - 2011/05/01 13:57:38
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HumbleNoise
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/01 13:41:09
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I need a little clarification from those that know more. I thought I read in the OP that the volumes were too low and I always thought that should be taken care of BEFORE mastering. Sure levels can be brought up in Mastering but shouldn't overall levels be around -3db -5db before the mastering stage? It sounds to me from the example given in OP that there's a lot to be done in the mixing stage BEFORE mastering. Am I missing something obvious?
post edited by HumbleNoise - 2011/05/01 13:46:56
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chuckebaby
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/01 13:45:23
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i must be doing this all wrong..because i ussualy mix in 24 bit not even touching the red..but just riding close to it..on my master on the other hand,i jack it right up as load as i can with out going off the scale.and my latest tune sounds real good..i got that loudness i was looking for..there is a lot to be learned about this subject.
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Middleman
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/01 14:02:10
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Depending on the mastering house the request can be from -12 to -6 with variations once the mix is done. They are just looking for some headroom to make their adjustments. The limiter caps the peaks, the compressor raises the apparent volume but if you really heavily limit, it can contribute to the apparent volume as well. Any EQ you add will also contribute to the volume (+/-) as well but generally very small amounts.
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Legion
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/01 15:09:51
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Yeah many mastering houses ask for mixes that peak at -6 but that's becaeuse they don't want them any louder As long as there is no interference with background noice that becomes to noticable when the levels are brought up a mix can pretty much be quiet as a church mouse.
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UnderTow
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/02 12:39:46
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HumbleNoise I thought I read in the OP that the volumes were too low and I always thought that should be taken care of BEFORE mastering. Sure levels can be brought up in Mastering but shouldn't overall levels be around -3db -5db before the mastering stage? In short, no. :-) Unless you really know what you are doing, it is best to concentrate purely on achieving the best overall sound while mixing and leave any loudness concerns for mastering. With Jazz or classical music (or anything like it) I would even say that you ALWAYS mix for the best sound regardless of level even if you are a top-tier engineer. For rock, pop, electronica etc, if you really know what you are doing, you can mix with loudness in mind... maybe... but someone that is good enough to do that without making a mess of things won't be asking for advice on a forum. ;-) That said, any mix can only be made so much louder before it falls to pieces. The more balanced the mix the easier it will be to make it louder in mastering. And the first step to achieving a loud master starts in the arrangement. The fewer elements competing for the headroom, the easier it is to make things louder. From a purely technical point of view, with 24 bit, levels can't really be too low before mastering. On the contrary, many mastering engineers prefer mixes with lower levels. Of course that doesn't mean it should be at -60 dB FS either. Anything peaking between -20 and -3 dB before mastering should be fine. UnderTow
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konradh
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Re:Mastering Question
2011/05/02 13:05:46
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Listen to an Oasis CD and then one by the London Philharmonic just to restore your sanity. I totally feel your question, bro, but as the examples above will demonstrate, professional level can be a lot of different things. I personally send my finished mix CD to a mastering engineer that I trust not to make everything come out like a big pulse wave. You can spend a fortune if you want, but lots of solid smaller CD duplicating places will put some shine on your CD for $500. There is also value in someone other than the artist or mixer doing the mastering. Those guys hear stuff we do not and they are coming in fresh.
post edited by konradh - 2011/05/02 13:07:32
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