bluesmaster63
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Mastering choices
Hey all, Getting around to mastering my first project and am curious as to what you all use for mastering plugins? What gives the music that glisseny sound?
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CJaysMusic
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/13 16:54:36
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What plugs do you have and what version of sonar do you have... This would really help, because i left my crystal ball at work.  Cj
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Flykeyz
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/13 17:48:19
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This is something that's going to be trial and error as what may sound good to one engineer, may sound like crap to another. Just experiment and take notes just don't go overboard processing unless that's the sound you're shooting for
On the never ending quest for that perfect session, perfect mix, and a perfect world let's just take it one at a time.
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tor
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/13 18:53:12
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In my experience, the way to go is hardware mastering units, they simply work better than software.
I used to do soft mastering, until I got a TC Electronic Finalizer 96K, it created a small revolution in my studio...
If you haven't tried any hardware mastering units before, I suggest you do that, there really is a difference...
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CJaysMusic
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/13 19:20:02
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The TC is a really nice piece of hardware. Its on my things to get, but cant affort list.
cj
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tor
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/13 20:00:35
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You can pick one up at eBay for considerably less than in a store, even new ones... I've bought much of my studio gear from eBay, new, seriously good equipment for just a fraction of what it would cost in a store. Just have to be patient and spot the good deals.. You've made a good decision by putting it on your list, it's a magic wand, I guarantee you it will take your productions through all the last steps, and then a few more... Hmmm, just saw a site here in norway that has cut the prices for the 96 K by almost 50% and the M3000 by almost 25%, selling them out as bundles... Maybe TC is launching something new, so the prices will be cut on older equipment?? And just for kicks, I ran a search on eBay, there's one, new in box, for 1600$...
post edited by tor - 2007/04/13 20:25:34
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evansmalley
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/13 20:33:33
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ok not trying to start some forum freak-out but I've found without a doubt by far that lots of mastering tasks- sonics-wise (not automations, edits, etc) is far better done with high quality analog processors. And I think if you search articles from some of the best, most experienced mastering engineers- you'll find they use analog paths lots of times- for their most critical masters. This is just about the sonics, what I'm saying I've found... not editing... I'd try some of your finest analog compessors and EQ's and compare that to the sound of your plug-ins- see what you find. There's no magic app (well maybe! haven't found it yet!) but you may be surprised with the musical-ness of the textures of analog devices. Lots of the world's best who have scrutinized the crap out of everything think that's the way to go for them! So, just a concept- Ev www.evanandnature.com
post edited by evansmalley - 2007/04/14 07:25:59
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CJaysMusic
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/13 21:21:31
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I totaly agree with you evan. I have an outboard dbx compressor that i use for my bass and vocals, and i just experimented with it sending a project out to it, and put my montors and the outputs of the dbx and i got an exellent sound from it. Maybee ill sent it back into sonar and make 2 different mixes and see how much of a difference their is. But im adding another a/d conversion, so i dont know.
Cj
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trock8500
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/13 21:35:57
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Hi i have used Tracks-24, and have Ozone right now, they are fine for some fun mastering and quick tweaks. however you will get the best results from true mastering pro's, real ME's here are a few i knwo of that do great work Terry Manning, Compass Point Studios http://www.compasspointstudios.com/ Stever Berson http://www.totalsonicmastering.com/ Dave Mcnair http://www.unitymasteringnyc.com/ the usual process is, well for me as just a home guy, to FTP the WAV to them, they master it and you re download it. i think the price from Dave was 100 bucks a song. i think Terry starts around 1500 an album. of course its pretty sweet to have their name on a project, people who have worked with Led Zeppelin, ZZ Top, Aerosmith etc Steve Berson also does a wonderful job and is a smaller venue hope that helps, oh and they all seem to do one free for you so you can hear the difference. it was a pretty big difference in comparison to MY masters
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GrooveMonkee
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/13 21:40:47
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Blues,
When I was at Berklee, they taught us to master a stereo mix with these three effects in order:
1. EQ
2. Multi-band compressor
3. Compressor (mostly for limiting)
You can get a good clean and loud wav or mp3 playing around with these three tools. We used stock sonar plugs and Timeworks plugs (EQ and CompressorX). That is, nothing fancy. Of course, a lot depends on the stereo mix you start with.
Get a good set of monitors (no home stereo speakers, period)
Good luck!
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Dr. Mac
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/13 21:49:11
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ORIGINAL: tor
In my experience, the way to go is hardware mastering units, they simply work better than software.
I used to do soft mastering, until I got a TC Electronic Finalizer 96K, it created a small revolution in my studio...
If you haven't tried any hardware mastering units before, I suggest you do that, there really is a difference...
The TC EF96K is a great unit! Looking at the specs it appears as if it is purely digital. Therefore, there is no theoretical difference between that and a really-nice plug-in. TC also produces the TC-PowerCore, which I've heard has some killer mastering plugs. Again, EXPENSIVE! I would recommend sending out your tunes for mastering at another studio. That way, you get another ear on the music. That's what I plan to do with my band's current project anyway! Good luck!
RME FireFace 800, 3.4GHz quad-core AMD-64, 8 Gigs RAM Sonar X2a Producer, Fav. Plugs: Ozone 5 Advanced, Waves, Sonnox, Melodyne, Voxengo, SSL Native, Drumagog 5 Platinum
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tor
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/13 21:59:04
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I agree, getting a second opinion should almost be considered a necessary tool... About software and digital hardware, mathematically there should not be any difference, however, a hardware unit is dedicated to one task whereas the pc is often running loads of stuff. When talking about reverb for instance, when a pc is pushed hard in processing, small alterations in the pitch of the reverbed signal might occur. It is of course inaudible to the ear, but can be audible as loss of transparency in a mix.... Using external, hardware units minimalizes the potential for this.... I definitely hear the difference between a hardware unit such as the 96K and high quality plugins such as the Powercore plugs, which I also have. After I got the 96K I haven't used the Powercore once, its simply stunningly good, often it's enough to find the right preset, no need for tweaking, it sounds just like on a cd bought in the store...
post edited by tor - 2007/04/13 22:14:42
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droddey
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/13 22:30:17
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When talking about reverb for instance, when a pc is pushed hard in processing, small alterations in the pitch of the reverbed signal might occur. What evidence do you have for that? I don't believe it would be the case. The PC is processing samples. It will either process them or it will not. If it cannot process them in time due to some sort of massive load, it would just fail outright.
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tor
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/13 23:30:50
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When researching an external reverb unit, more specifically the TC Electronic M3000, I came across that information
over at their site. You can find it in the technology bit about the M3000, if I remember correctly.
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musec07
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 00:04:41
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ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic
What plugs do you have and what version of sonar do you have... This would really help, because i left my crystal ball at work.
Cj
CJ... I know you're a helpful, thoughtful fellow but sometimes these remarks crack me up!!! I just spit coffee on my damn monitor.... Heh Heh..... Anyway... there were several fantastic articles on Mastering recently in the trade mags... EQ, EM, SOS... if you want to email me direct to remind me, I'll look them up for you.... No offense here at all: If you're asking about plug ins to master... maybe you need to read about the subject first.... I was amazed at some of the comments and advice I picked up and I still don't know what the hell they were saying! Mastering is quite an art... I got lots to learn....
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Rain
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 00:07:26
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I have serious doubt... Why would such a thing happen w/ reverb and not with the actual tracks themselves? Unless it's a flaw that is particular to one actual plug-in - and even then, I doubt that it would depend on the CPU usage and that a plug-in could bypass the host itself to decide when there's too much going on. It seems the host would just drop-out... Plus, this would have no effect on the final mix that is bounced offline. ORIGINAL: tor
When researching an external reverb unit, more specifically the TC Electronic M3000, I came across that information
over at their site. You can find it in the technology bit about the M3000, if I remember correctly.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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musec07
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 00:12:14
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ORIGINAL: evansmalley
ok not trying to start some forum freak-out but I've found without a doubt by far that lots of mastering tasks- sonics-wise (not automations, edits, etc) is far better done with high quality analog processors. And I think if you search articles from some of the best, most experienced mastering engineers- you'll find they use analog paths lots- for their most critical masters.
This is just about the sonics, what I'm saying I've found... not editing...
I'd try some of your finest analog compessors and EQ's and compare that to the sound of your plug-ins- see what you find. There's no magic app (well maybe! haven't found it yet!) but you may be surprised with the musical-ness of the textures of analog devices. Lots of the world's best who have scritinized the crap out of everything think that's the way to go for them!
So, just a concept-
Ev
www.evanandnature.com
Spot On Mate ! this is the kind of advice I picked up in the magazine articles mentioned in my earlier post... Mastering really is an interesting study...
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CJaysMusic
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 00:33:33
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ORIGINAL: musec07
ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic
What plugs do you have and what version of sonar do you have... This would really help, because i left my crystal ball at work.
Cj
CJ... I know you're a helpful, thoughtful fellow but sometimes these remarks crack me up!!!
I just spit coffee on my damn monitor.... Heh Heh.....
Anyway... there were several fantastic articles on Mastering recently in the trade mags... EQ, EM, SOS...
if you want to email me direct to remind me, I'll look them up for you....
No offense here at all:
If you're asking about plug ins to master... maybe you need to read about the subject first....
I was amazed at some of the comments and advice I picked up and I still don't know what the hell they were saying!
Mastering is quite an art... I got lots to learn....
LOL, i wanted to know so i know what plugs the person has and then i can tell him or her wich ones are meant and good for mastering. Im sorry about your monitor. Cj
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Rain
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 00:40:49
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Before it degenerates... Funny. When a fellow musician asks a question about mixing, no one will ever tell him/her to just hire a profesionnal mix engineer... We just assume that the person wishes/has to learn or can't afford big studio time and a star mix engineer. No one goes: of course you'd be better recording on analog gear at Abbey Road w/ Mutt Lange... Everyone knows that. But will you give up on music because you can't write something that'll top Electric Ladyland? But when it comes to "mastering", maybe because the term is used loosely, there always someone to go all preachy about how mastering is this or that and you shouldn't do it yourself... My best guess is that in 99% of the cases, the person asking questions is not expected to send his final master to Sony Music or EMI for mass-distribution tomorrow morning (i.e., they just want to polish their final mix/demo/small release). If he/she is a seasoned mix engineer, he/she already knows the benefit of hiring a ME. If he/she is not a pro mix engineer but have managed to put together a mix that's worth being sent to a mastering engineer, most likely, he/she has read a few things about these topics already and knows about those benefits too. Which leaves us one target audience - people who wish to learn or can't afford/don't intend to send out their mix to a Mastering House. Of course you can always recommend a real ME, jsut in case... You can point them to JSaras who hangs out around here for a start. But I see no point in assuming that the person asking the question is that ignorant...
post edited by Rain - 2007/04/14 00:44:34
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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droddey
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 00:51:14
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When researching an external reverb unit, more specifically the TC Electronic M3000, I came across that information
over at their site. You can find it in the technology bit about the M3000, if I remember correctly. I.e. from a company that's selling a product whose future is probably not very bright unless more people think that external units are better. I'd take it with a grain of salt. As a software geek I find it highly improbable that any such thing would happen. Your machine either has the oomph required or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then it won't be able to process samples fast enough and SONAR will probably give you the DROPOUT error.
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musec07
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 01:04:05
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ORIGINAL: Rain
Before it degenerates...
Funny. When a fellow musician asks a question about mixing, no one will ever tell him/her to just hire a profesionnal mix engineer... We just assume that the person wishes/has to learn or can't afford big studio time and a star mix engineer. No one goes: of course you'd be better recording on analog gear at Abbey Road w/ Mutt Lange... Everyone knows that. But will you give up on music because you can't write something that'll top Electric Ladyland?
But when it comes to "mastering", maybe because the term is used loosely, there always someone to go all preachy about how mastering is this or that and you shouldn't do it yourself...
Of course you can always recommend a real ME, jsut in case... You can point them to JSaras who hangs out around here for a start. But I see no point in assuming that the person asking the question is that ignorant...
You're right... no sense... at all... Ignorance would be assuming aspiration to become more knowledgeable in one's trade is as trite as this statement makes it out to be... No one will ever write Electric Ladyland again... yet the piece will be studied and will inspire many to compose something based on its' influence.... some of those compositions may become classics...most won't... there's no point to it except the pleasure of sharing in the experience... Sharing may include the basics... discovering the basics will always be a joy to experience and to share... every teacher I had always assumed I wasn't familiar with basic scales.... it wasn't a mistake on their part... the point was the way the teacher approached the scale... what mode? what influence?.... Lee Oskar is someone I've crossed paths with over the years... one of his harmonica classes is taught with a philosophy that all musical styles can be interpreted in a blues idiom... then he gives examples of how he's interpreted various styles and transmuted them into the blues... But there I go getting preachy and you're right about that too... OK I give.... I haven't "mastered" the subject !!! Anybody got a copy of the new Don Imus album?
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punkin
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 01:35:12
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Software and gear is cheap, compared to the cost of skills and labor. Mastering is an art all of it's own. I send my stuff out.
Windows 7 64 BIT Intel I7 8 GB RAM SONAR X1 Pro M-Audio Profire 2626
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jsaras
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 01:35:32
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Although I make generous use of plugins I really couldn't get by without a Manley Massive Passive EQ and Vari Mu Compressor.
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CJaysMusic
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 01:58:50
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For most people like me and probably 92.6 percent of us in here master our own stuff, Its not that we dont have money or we think we can do a better job, but this is what we like to do, and we all learn from it. If i was making a record for radio play and an album, hell yea ill send it to a mastering house, But for now i enjoy and i think i speak for the 92.6 percent of us in here. We love doing it ourselves. Its great to experiment and learn new technigues and to post your songs in the song forum and get feedback on them and then go tinker with it somemore. Thats why im recording. Its Freeking fun and Mastering is the funnest part of the whole project.
Cj
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tycyphy
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 03:38:56
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bluesmaster: Might I suggest downloading the ozone mastering guide. http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/guides.html should get you started in some mastering concepts even if you don't use ozone. though "glistenny" sound is a vague term. I would suggest starting with a high quality linear phase eq( I like voxengo's curve eq), multiband compression and possibly..if you like the sound a harmonic exciter(very lightly). you might download the anteres plugins(they are free...do a google search) there is more than enough toys there to get you started on "mastering" your own stuff. if your releasing your stuff commercially a mastering house is the way to go.....but if your not....get in there, do it yourself and learn as you go. good luck, t
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vilette
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 04:28:12
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which free antares plugins?
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tor
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 07:28:26
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I.e. from a company that's selling a product whose future is probably not very bright unless more people think that external units are better. Do you think that quality is the overall reason why people choose software, or might it be that they in general get multiple plugins for the price of one hardware unit?? I actually own the M3000, a Powercore card with some serious plugs, and loads of other software, and there is no question, if I had known what I know today when I first started buying software, I wouldn't have wasted all that money, I'd just buy the M3000 right away.
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pdarg
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 11:24:21
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Hey Tor!
Can you tell me if it would be possible to use a TC Finalizer 96 in my situation:
I have a LynxTwo card with digital in/out. I would want to route a stereo mix from my computer into the finalizer, and then back to the computer again as a processed recording. Is is possible to use the digital in/out of the finalizer to connect with the digital in/out of my soundcard in this manner?
Thanks!
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tycyphy
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 13:03:03
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ooblecaboodle
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RE: Mastering choices
2007/04/14 13:08:57
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Hey all, Getting around to mastering my first project and am curious as to what you all use for mastering plugins? What gives the music that glisseny sound? I use hardware when I want that special 'character', and plugins when i need a typically sterile process. That's about as much information as I can give you, every job is different!
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